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Author Topic: Ben Not an Elite QB  (Read 1449 times)
Finnegans Wake
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« on: Oct 09, 2007 at 10:54 »

As we know, the only elite NFL QBs are Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.  Good but not elite?  Well, we have Tony Romo, who despite starting the game last night with two straight throws for picks and winding up with, oh, about a thousand turnovers on the night, is still sitting pretty in statsville.  And of course, Brett Favre, who now sits atop the record books with most picks ever, is also enjoying a great season as he undergoes some sort of miracle rejuvenation.  

What would have happened had those QBs been without their top two receiving targets?  Brady without Moss and Welker?  Manning without Harrison and Wayne?  Romo without Witten and TO?  Favre without Driver and Jones?  Would they have been able to move the ball as effortlessly as Ben did once he found his groove with, for pity's sake, Nate Washington and Ced Wilson?

Oh, and don't you just love how the media are all apologists for Toe Manning and Phil Livers, but Ben remains just the game manager with a great D and running game to carry him?  I mean, Ellie has some sort of bipolar performance not just from game to game, but within each game, and Rivers is excused for any bad performances because he's also still developing?  Weren't all three of these guys drafted the same year (along with Losman, round 1)?  
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JackSplat
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 12:07 »

the only thing that makes any sense for the treatment Ben has received over his career is:  there is no other way to justify his rookie year and subsequent super bowl season for any other reason than he was carried by his team and not the other way around.

im guessing the media is sticking to their guns that there is no way in hell some rook Qb can come into the NFL and have such success.  lose one flipping game behind center his rookie year and go all the way to the AFCCG.  the following year only 3 losses and a super bowl win.  holy fuck is it so hard to actually attribute the teams success to the QB position?  i mean its not like we had the same guys lining up only a few short years prior to Ben's arrival.

fuck em all i say
 
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Hercules50
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 12:43 »

It's funny to me how you'd hear, just as often as the stuff about Ben, that Bettis was an overrated fat slow running back, and Hines Ward is just a slow possession receiver...

In other words, you'd hear that Ben was just a manager of great surrounding talent in one breath, and then the next you'd hear that the talent around him were a bunch of overrated players....

The truth is this: when Ben joined the team it was like a miniature version of our 1974 draft. We already had a very good team in '72 and '73 -- and then we added pieces that made the team dominant for the rest of the decade.

In '04, we were a good team without a QB, and we got kind of lucky and got one of the top TWO QBs drafted in this entire decade (the other being Tom Brady).  
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PittsburghPA
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 13:00 »

This is exactly the kind of flawed logic that I've detected for almost two years now. Fresh off our victory in Super Bowl XL, I had to remind people that we'd just won the Super Bowl with a fat RB, overrated WRs, a suspect secondary, a ROLB who was more talk than action, a QB who only knows how to hand the ball off, and a head coach who chokes in big games. :lol:

Also, we can discuss common sense at another time, but how can anybody seriously say that the Ben Roethlisberger we saw in the first half of the 2006 season was "the real Ben," even though he had his head bashed in by both a Chrysler New Yorker and a pair of Atlanta Falcons, and also had an organ in his body removed right before the season started?

"Logic for dumbfucks," ladies and gentlemen!
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2007 at 13:01 by PittsburghPA » Logged

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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 13:39 »

Quote
Also, we can discuss common sense at another time, but how can anybody seriously say that the Ben Roethlisberger we saw in the first half of the 2006 season was "the real Ben," even though he had his head bashed in by both a Chrysler New Yorker and a pair of Atlanta Falcons, and also had an organ in his body removed right before the season started?

 
Wait... what's this?!?  First I've heard of it!
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aj_law
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 14:36 »

PHIRRIP LIVERS IS DA PIKE HEREE!!!!!!111111111111<><><><>><><><><
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 09, 2007 at 20:35 »

I love how when you hear this stuff it's almost like they want Ben/ Ben's supporters to appologize for the Steelers having a great defense and the ability to run the ball.  
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padgfrombf
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 10, 2007 at 00:30 »

Yeah, it's a frustrating argument.  Huge yards per attempt with, when right, a very good TD-pick ratio.  The former is what really separates Ben from the McNabb types.  The ability to escape and make plays happen separates him from a Carson Palmer or Phil Rivers.

BBR doesn't operate behind a zone blocking system designed to keep him clean; it's configured to be able to run the ball enough to win games.  Can you imagine Kurt Warner or Palmer in the Steelers backfield?  Ben wakes up on first contact.  They'd be down and in shell shock by Game 5.  

Give Manning and Brady their props.  Their teams win big and Brady's done it with and without superstar receivers.  After that, who do you trade Ben for?   I'm not in the Tony Romo camp quite yet.  Eli Manning looks like he's got some potential and toughness, but cripes, he's a friggin' year older than Ben and is still described as a star in development.

I guess BBR is just going to have be this generation's Jim Kelly or Troy Aikman.  Never as good as the top dogs (Montana, Elway, or Marino), but after a 100 wins or so, nobody in Pittsburgh is going to give a rat's ass.
« Last Edit: Oct 10, 2007 at 00:32 by padgfrombf » Logged
Hercules50
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 10, 2007 at 07:39 »

Quote
Yeah, it's a frustrating argument.  Huge yards per attempt with, when right, a very good TD-pick ratio.  The former is what really separates Ben from the McNabb types.  The ability to escape and make plays happen separates him from a Carson Palmer or Phil Rivers.

BBR doesn't operate behind a zone blocking system designed to keep him clean; it's configured to be able to run the ball enough to win games.  Can you imagine Kurt Warner or Palmer in the Steelers backfield?  Ben wakes up on first contact.  They'd be down and in shell shock by Game 5.
I think this is an excellent point.

Brady and Manning, to name two, are truly great QBs. So is Palmer, in my view.  B

But all three of these guys play in systems that are pass-oriented, and have a great cast around them for the passing game.

If Ben had Brady's protection and his receivers, he'd easily be tossing 3 TDs a game, too.  
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whitmer_87
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 10, 2007 at 12:56 »

I just tell people to go look at the stats of the 2005 playoffs. Ben posted the 4th highest QB rating in playoffs history. And, of course, carried us to the Super Bowl.

Ben normally gets the title "Game Manager" or "System Quarterback". Both title are completely bogus. Ben does so much after the play breaks down that he cannot be called either. How many times have we seen Ben break a tackle, roll out, and find someone after everything went to shit? Can't same the same about Manning and Brady.

Manning and Brady are obviously two great players. I don't want to be a homer and discredit them in anyway, but can Ben get some fucking respect already?

Another thing; I keep hearing everyone say shit like, "Stop the run, and make Ben beat you with his arm." Hasn't he proven that he can do this yet? What's his record as a starter?38-13? It's somewhere around there. But obviously that game plan isn't working too well.  
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