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Author Topic: Looking back: should we have kept Plax?  (Read 2830 times)
Y2Joyce
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 17, 2007 at 17:41 »

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i'm curious if we were even in the running for Moss as when that deal went down (4th rounder? jesus) I was suprised as shit and like, "fuck". i wonder if anyone else was in the running

I can think of a couple dozen teams that should've been. Moss, no matter what you think of him personally, opens everything up for everyone else in the offense...all the while still possessing the ability to come through with a play on his own despite the double (or triple) team coverage.

I was distraught when I knew he was going to New England. I said that day that the commissioner should not have allowed the deal. A 4th rounder!? Wes Welker, Chris Chambers and A.J. Feeley have all been traded for second round picks in the past year or two and that's just the Dolphins.

Oakland fuckin quit on this year by taking such a poor return for Moss and basically changed the hierarchy of AFC powers by giving him away to New England. They should've been fined. Or at least cussed out.

Seriously, if I was working at some team's draft table and they announced that Randy Moss was acquired by New England for a meager fourth round draft pick I would've been pissed and caused a scene. I would've chucked my team's helmet-phone directly at whoever they got to do the announcement and I doubt he'd have made it off the stage alive.

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Why in blue blazes would Moss come to the 'Burgh in lieu of a pass-first offense such as that in New England?

Because it aint Oakland.

And we've got a new coordinator.

No really the Steelers could've just traded for him. He would've had to have played. If he wanted to hold out then so what I'd still do the trade. What the hell have our second day draft picks provided us of late?

If you told me today that we could give up a fourth round pick in exchange for Moss, he'd pout about our offense, hold out, and never play for us I would seriously still do the trade. It's worth getting him the hell off of the Patriots. They are not the same team without him.

I seem to recall Plax getting his share of deep ball TDs in his last year or two with the Steelers. Didn't he lead the league in yards per catch the year that he left? I'm willing to take the leap of faith that, even in our antiquated smash-mouth offense, we'd have found a way to utilize Moss in a beneficial way here and there.

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FWIW, that two year hiatus chasing the big bucks in his prime is going to cost Moss a shot at Jerry Rice's all time records for yardage and TD's.

Playing for the Raiders? Yeah ok it's Moss' fault they sucked. Yeah Randy run on down the field, wait for the ball to come, hear Kerry Collins/Andrew Walter/Aaron Brooks get sacked, then turn around and get ready to repeat that. Their kicker waddles around drunk, Jerry Porter was high-fiving people in the crowd when Brooks suffered a record breaking sack against, Art Shell showed all the emotion of Bernie Lomax in the scenes where there was no music playing and Al Davis is an old "creep" that falls asleep during the interviews for head coach.

Moss got traded to Oakland. He wasn't chasing big bucks. He was already the highest paid WR in the league from a deal he signed with Minnesota. And they dumped him to save cap space and clean up their act. Then without him Culpepper's career fell apart, Tice got canned, they missed the playoffs and missed the playoffs some more, they couldn't get their picks in on time,  Koren Robinson sped around drunk, Dwight Smith choked a bitch, Smoot famously captained a sex boat pleasure cruise and they gave away the only coach that was worth a damn in Tomlin.

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While NE no doubt has a system where they pass more frequently, to date they were more of a short passing team.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. They went from dink-and-dunk NE into the highest scoring NFL team since the record setting Moss-led Vikings.

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Add to that: the fact that BR has nearly the highest yards per attempt in recent history of the league! Moss has always seemed to thrive on the long bomb.

Ben would finally be getting his props and, like I was saying, we'd be just as good as everyone thinks New England is.






 
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padgfrombf
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 02:21 »

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Why in blue blazes would Moss come to the 'Burgh in lieu of a pass-first offense such as that in New England?

Because it aint Oakland.

And we've got a new coordinator.

No really the Steelers could've just traded for him. He would've had to have played. If he wanted to hold out then so what I'd still do the trade. What the hell have our second day draft picks provided us of late?

If you told me today that we could give up a fourth round pick in exchange for Moss, he'd pout about our offense, hold out, and never play for us I would seriously still do the trade. It's worth getting him the hell off of the Patriots. They are not the same team without him...


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FWIW, that two year hiatus chasing the big bucks in his prime is going to cost Moss a shot at Jerry Rice's all time records for yardage and TD's.

Playing for the Raiders? Yeah ok it's Moss' fault they sucked...

Moss got traded to Oakland. He wasn't chasing big bucks. He was already the highest paid WR in the league from a deal he signed with Minnesota. And they dumped him to save cap space and clean up their act...

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Add to that: the fact that BR has nearly the highest yards per attempt in recent history of the league! Moss has always seemed to thrive on the long bomb.

Ben would finally be getting his props and, like I was saying, we'd be just as good as everyone thinks New England is.
Moss did renegotiate his contract for New England.  Even if you got Moss, Stallworth, and Welker on the Steelers, they still wouldn't become passing nirvana in the sense that the Steelers O-line is not really set up to pass the ball 24/7.  Maybe we consider some zone blocking system and personnel for this down the road, but that's not what the Steelers have now.  Big Ben has led the league in YPA (though not in 2006 or this year) in spite of that, but rarely goes much over 200 yards a game.  I'm wondering, and this also goes back to the original Plax question, whether having a Moss would provide a huge boost in the Steelers pass production this year.

Yeah, a pre-emptory strike/trade to avoid restocking the Patriots would have been seriously wonderful, but I'm just having a difficult time imagining a scenario where the Steelers could have got him without, say, a player and a R2 pick and not paying $9MM in salary.  There is an assumption there that Moss would not have renegotiated his contract for Pittsburgh or most teams.  I'm not claiming any special insight here, I just have a problem seeing how a Moss-in-B&G could have happened.

And yeah, the "chasing the big bucks" comment probably was way too harsh, but FWIW, there was no implication on my part that Moss or the trade ruined Oakland.  Al Davis had already sown those seeds.  But the part about being in that wasteland ruining Moss' chances from some of Rice's records is probably going to play out.

 
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 07:47 »

Padg, you have to excuse Y2(zwanzig)'s man-love for Moss.  It verges on the obscene.  I have a healthy respect for the dude's talents, but there's a healthy dose of amnesia or hindsight at work that concludes the Moss-to-New England was, at the time, a sure thing.  Even for a mere fourth rounder.

It's a familiar history: admitted marijuana use during the season ("once in a blue moon"); walking off the field as the Vikings were attempting an onside kick with 2 seconds left; notoriously bad attitude (on a bad team) in Oakland, coupled with dimished output, poor practice habits, and nagging injuries; off-the-field incident with bumping a meter reader with his car; prior to 2007, he had yardage totals of 767 and 553, leading many to speculate that Randy had given up on the game.  So, that was the backstory, and once in New England, it took Randy a fair time to get his hamstring healthy enough to even practice.  

In short, Randy could easily be another Ricky Williams or David Boston or whatever player has shifted his on-field production to off-field issues with substances and situations, and hasn't done anything in meaningful football terms.  Padg sets a good table as to why the fit might not have worked here, but I think Randy got it in his mind that, as a 30-year-old receiver, the time was now or enver for a ring, and he was just going to select a team or a short list of teams he felt could get him there, and boycott the rest.  Who knows if Pittsburgh would have been on that list; not being a big passing team, I really doubt it.

Now, speculate away as to why the Moss in Foxboro situation has worked, but so far this season all has been smooth sailing.  What happens when:

*Randy doesn't get fed the ball a few games for some reason.
*The Patriots, wildly heralded by some as the best team ever assembled, actually stumble for a few games?
*Randy's 30-year-old body comes up gimp again, maybe a re-aggravation of the hammy?
*Randy's playing week in and week out in the tundra conditions of New England?

Not saying it's foregone that he's going to revert to some previous bad form, just saying it's not a foregone conclusion he won't.  Will he still create coverage issues for opposing defenses?  Will he be a home run threat every time he steps on the field?  Could he continue to be the player he is now for another 4, 5 years?  Hey, maybe.  But he was, and remains, a volatile risk.  Coaches and GMs want consistency.  

It makes me wonder why the Pioli-Belichick braintrust wanted to make that gamble, and bring in a guy who didn't seemingly fit the squeaky clean propoaganda image for the Patriots?  Any time a team brings in as many free agents as the Pats did, it says to me the core is declining, and the impetus for a quick assemblage of talent for a short run is out of desperation.  At least they didn't Snyder it.  But is the Patriots team who we thought they were?  Is Randy who we think he is?

I'll say week 17 looks much different than week 6.
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Hercules50
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 08:02 »

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Oakland fuckin quit on this year by taking such a poor return for Moss and basically changed the hierarchy of AFC powers by giving him away to New England. They should've been fined. Or at least cussed out.
I agree, man. I seriously can't understand what Al Davis was thinking.

If you're only going to ask for a fourth-rounder for Moss, you're telling me they couldn't find a non-contender to trade him to? This is a smaller version of the dumb-ass Bengals trading Corey Dillon to a team who was a RB away from being a complete team. I understand trades -- I understand trading talented malcontents who don't want to play for you anymore -- I don't understand trading such players to powerhouses in your own conference whose only weakness is the position the player in question plays.

As for the Pats: Finn, I respectfully disagree with the thrust of your argument, that Moss could implode any minute and revert to his Oakland performance. I grant that he could get injured -- but six weeks in, after training camp, when games will only acquire importance, I don't see him walking off the practice field in some kind of tantrum.

The Patriots are the best team in football right now, and I think the margin is significant, at this moment. But -- this can change. This Patriots team isn't much different than the 2001 Rams, who actually had BETTER offensive numbers six games into the season, and (though people forget this) played good defense most of the year. Or the 1998 Vikings, whose offense was even better. Both teams looked unstoppable, and neither won the Super Bowl.

So, six weeks in is far from over.

The Patriots do have problems. I don't think they're more than an average running team. Their LBs are ancient, and not good in coverage, and I think that, in a close game, they can be exploited ruthlessly. The Pats have gotten on top of people and then played a lot of nickel and dime, keeping those LBs off the field. The Patriots are also pretty average in the secondary. They have a great defensive line, and that's worth a lot, but that's all they really have on defense. Rodney Harrison can't cover any more.

They have weaknesses, and if a team is balanced on offense and plays a defense that concedes the run and contains the pass somewhat, (think Giants against the Bills in that Super Bowl) the Patriots can be beat.
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2007 at 08:04 by Hercules50 » Logged
JackSplat
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 08:40 »

Oakland may have quit on this year giving up Moss for only a 4th rounder, but I believe Davis and the Raiders had no leverage what-so-ever with Moss.  It was painfully obvious to the raiders and the entire league that Randy Moss didnt like the situation he was in and would never play to his potential.  He was washed up (at least in my eyes) and would never be the Randy Moss of old.  Im sure there were many teams that felt the same way I did.  

Im sure if some teams, steelers included, would have known that Randy Moss would be "reborn" with his play like he is in NE, then it would be a completely different ball game.

The only reason I do not think Pittsburgh was an option for the him this year was last years results alone.  Ben leading the league in INTs, the poor offensive production, overall amount of turnovers, the poor record, etc.  sure we were only a year removed from a super bowl championship, but even us fans were not sure if Ben would bounce back and revert to Ben of old.  I guess the question to ask is, did Moss have a say in any trade talks?

sure Moss is lighting up the stat books with his TDs and # of receptions.  Keep in mind that Maroney has missed a couple games and once he returns, will Brady still chuck the ball up 40+ a game?

Between the two, Moss or Burress would be nice to luxury to have.  Both would be a welcome addition to this team.  But both are players that would not be as productive here as they would on another team.

I seem to recall that things were picture perfect in Philly with McNabb and TO too. That turned south very quickly, even after just playing in a super bowl.  If Moss is playing to win a super bowl, well there is no second place trophy in his eyes this year.  If by chance NE craps the bed and doesnt win it all this year, i feel very safe in saying that Moss will turn out to be the Moss we all knew and loved in Oakland.
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 09:39 »

Finny, thanks, but man-love or no, my comment about Moss chasing the money was flat-out wrong.  Oakland may have well been one of the few teams willing to take on Moss' full contract at the time, but that's not the same as greed.  The point remains, he was traded.

I suspect Moss will be OK, even with some adversity by NE, unless Brady goes down.

Hercules, I agree and noted elsewhere that NE can be had at LB.  If Adalius Thomas weren't there, that would become quickly apparent.

NE may not have a run game right now, but they've only had three years (2001, 2004, 2006) with anything close to an average running game.  Maroney will cure that quickly if he returns at 100%.  With their division sucking eggs in a major way, the Pats are only going to have 3 or 4 tough games the rest of the way.

 
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 10:33 »

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As for the Pats: Finn, I respectfully disagree with the thrust of your argument, that Moss could implode any minute and revert to his Oakland performance. I grant that he could get injured -- but six weeks in, after training camp, when games will only acquire importance, I don't see him walking off the practice field in some kind of tantrum.

I'm not assigning any particular degree of likelihood to this, just saying it could happen.  Do I think he'll implode or stomp around in a snit?  Frankly, I do not.  Do I think it could happen?  Well... possibility is a different creature from probability.

And again, this is us working with 20/20 hindsight.  Back when the deal went down, we didn't have the luxury of the Beardy-to-Moss magic to see that everything would be this smooth.  We only had an unproductive bitchy Moss who had some question marks off the field as well, though nothing of the Pac Man magnitude.  Still, it was a risk assessment.
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Hercules50
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 11:08 »

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And again, this is us working with 20/20 hindsight.  Back when the deal went down, we didn't have the luxury of the Beardy-to-Moss magic to see that everything would be this smooth.  We only had an unproductive bitchy Moss who had some question marks off the field as well, though nothing of the Pac Man magnitude.  Still, it was a risk assessment.
That's true.

I did expect Moss to improve their passing game -- how could he not, after a season with Gaffney and Caldwell? But I didn't see this much impact.

Of course, the Pats added Welker and Stallworth, too, which may have actually made Moss appear better than he is, actually.

Incidentally, crazy though it sounds since Dallas gave up nearly 50 points, but I thought their gameplan wasn't all that bad. Parts of it (giving up big plays in the air) were just executed poorly. They forced the Pats into a number of critical 2nd- and 3rd-and-longs. They just couldn't get off the field much after doing so.
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 15:55 »

The Pats also were able to expose Roy Williams in a big, big way.  Guy looked more confused than Etric Pruitt in a Super Bowl (*).  On the long TD to Stallworth, Brady actually threw a bit of a duck, but Stallworth dragging across an open field, had all day to adjust to the ball and catch it in full acceleration.

(*) A little unfair to Pruitt, BTW, who had only played in 9 regular season games to that point.  Williams has no such excuse.
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Y2Joyce
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 18, 2007 at 19:28 »

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Padg, you have to excuse Y2(zwanzig)'s man-love for Moss. It verges on the obscene.

He's right. Only it is semi-obscene. But, whatever, I heard the same crap about AD Peterson around draft time.

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It's a familiar history: admitted marijuana use during the season ("once in a blue moon"); walking off the field as the Vikings were attempting an onside kick with 2 seconds left; notoriously bad attitude (on a bad team) in Oakland, coupled with dimished output, poor practice habits, and nagging injuries; off-the-field incident with bumping a meter reader with his car; prior to 2007, he had yardage totals of 767 and 553, leading many to speculate that Randy had given up on the game. So, that was the backstory, and once in New England, it took Randy a fair time to get his hamstring healthy enough to even practice.

Moss has never failed a drug test as a pro!
/barrybondsblindloyaltydefense

Walking off the field is inexcuseable. A moment of immaturity. Yes. The game was effectively ending on the onside kick. Still, walking off was wrong.

Poor practice habits? The Moss famously disruptive thing can I remember doing in Oakland is flipping out and saying that he seemed like the only one who cared. I'd have a hard time practicing for an asshole hack of an offensive coordinator, who had been out of coaching for 15 years prior, trying to change my super-successful game and make an example out of me.

That meter maid was some attention seeking John Wayne-wannabe broad. If somebody's in their car prepared to drive away and you are standing in front of it (blocking all avenues of procession) be prepared to be ran the f over. I thought that one was hilarious. AND the weed in his car wasnt his.

The smaller yardage totals (combined 1300+ in the two years anyway) came in season shorted by injury. The totals read 13 GP each year but remember to consider that Moss was used as a decoy for the first couple of drives some games (0 Rec in 6 of 8 games in the middle of '04 before limping around in Lambeau, scoring two TDs, and quite disgustingly faked moon the crowd in the playoffs). He had 15 TDs that year. Last season was an all-around abject disaster scene in Oakland. Hard for me to fault him on that one.

NE knew he was healthy. They had to see him working out. I suspect he showed enough dedication in learning the playbook and his new teammates that there was no reason to risk any hammy damage during games that meant squat.

Moss is from West Virginia, though and has a horrible hickville accent.

See...now who says I cant express objective opinion on the dude.  Straight fair and balanced, homey.

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I'm wondering, and this also goes back to the original Plax question, whether having a Moss would provide a huge boost in the Steelers pass production this year.

None of our WRs can get down the field or up in the air like Randy Moss. I just think that sort of attention would almost guarantee double or "Moss-side" bracket coverage on him and make it pretty darn difficult for anyone to give major attention to Heath Miller or stack up the 8th man in against Willie Parker and the run. That's my stance on it. More production can't be proven or disproven but I say it's obvious the opportunity would be there.

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Incidentally, crazy though it sounds since Dallas gave up nearly 50 points, but I thought their gameplan wasn't all that bad.

I think their defense kinda stinks.

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(*) A little unfair to Pruitt, BTW, who had only played in 9 regular season games to that point. Williams has no such excuse.

Also Pruitt was filling in for Marquand Manuel, who was hurt helmet-to-helmet hitting Hines Ward on a sideline run. And Manuel was filling in for Ken Hamlin in the first place. But seriously I think Pruitt is still chasing some of our guys on the big plays a couple of years later.




 
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