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Author Topic: Derek Anderson and Carson Palmer  (Read 1272 times)
Preacherman0
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« on: Nov 09, 2007 at 12:05 »

Since I don't want to do my many tasks this afternoon, I thought I'd continue the QB debate based on some stuff I heard this morning.

Kiper was on Mike&Mike, and they asked him, "Outside of Brady or Manning, what NFL QB would you choose to start your franchise?"  They mentioned Ben, Palmer, Romo.

Kiper says Carson Palmer.  I could give you a laundry list of reasons why that would be a dumb move, and why I'd never take Palmer over Ben.  Then he goes another direction, to prove that he is the most overrated, overblown dildo on the planet, by saying Derek Anderson.  Derek-friggin-Anderson.

Now I'm impressed with the kid, but he's been a starter for 8 games.  8.  By the 8th game on his career, Ben was 8-0 and had wins over two undefeated teams, including the Patriots.  How many times have we seen a guy start off as a ball of fire and then fade; maybe to get it back together, or maybe to fade away forever?  Yet the "expert" is ready to build his franchise around a guy who has played in 8 games so far.    

Call me a "homer" or a Ben Apologist or whatever you want.  There is no QB outside of the Messiah 1 and 2 that I would take over Ben.  Carson Palmer has been great, but he's not much if you hit him and he's already had a major knee injury.  Romo has shown some great stuff and is similar to Ben in some ways, but I'm not sold on him yet.  Derek Anderson???  Please.

Say what you want about stats, mechanics, throwing the ball where he shouldn't try to go with it, etc.  I want Ben to improve all of that--but, with that said, he's still just a winner.  To me, he just has that "it" factor that makes you believe he's going to find a way to get it done, to bring you back, to pull it together when you need it.  I was afraid he might have lost it last year, but it seems to be back in full force this year.
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give'emthaboot
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 12:33 »

you could make the argument about Palmer, but there is no way in hell that Derek Anderson belongs anywhere in that discussion.

and for the record, i am with ya about Ben being #3 behind Beardy and Manning, Preach.
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Hercules50
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 12:41 »

Interesting thoughts. And Preach is dead-on when he talks about how many a QB looks deceptively good early on, before defenses have scouted him thouroughly.

In fact, I'd say most QBs, even the very talented (maybe especially the very talented) go through a period of surprisingly good play to start, followed by a short-medium length drop-off after they've been thoroughly scouted.

The good and great ones adjust their game in turn, developing it so that they can overcome the adjustments defenses have made. Look at Brady. In his second year, he struggled. Manning's own play dipped for a couple of years. Favre, too. They overcame it and prospered, as has Ben.

But Derek Anderson -- the book's still out on him. He could simply be another Tommy Maddox -- remember when Maddox first took over, and he would routinely complete 70% of his passes and make a lot of big plays?

Well, he fell to earth. In 2002, Maddox had a stout line in front of him, decent running behind him, and a receiving corps of Hines, Plax, a solid veteran guy in Mathis, and a rookie Randle El. Defenses that had scouted the Steelers as a running team with a running QB took a long, long time to figure out what to do.

As for today's QBs, you can't argue against Manning or Brady. I do think that Carson Palmer is extremely talented, throws a very accurate ball, and reads defenses well.

But Ben is tougher than Palmer, is a better leader, is a thousand times more mobile, and has an upside, still. I think we've seen the best there is out of Palmer (which is quite good). Whereas Ben is dangerous now and could get even better.

Ben at 28 or 29 is going to be the best passer in football (unless his career goes the way of McNabb's, with injuries piling up....)
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2007 at 12:42 by Hercules50 » Logged
aj_law
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 13:05 »

Honestly, that's very surprising to hear him say that.  I think that's a classic example of a media "expert" making a statement purely to get ratings because Kiper has always been (from the several times I've heard him comment on Ben) a Roethlisberger proponent.  IIRC, he was high on him leading up to the draft and ever since he was picked by Pittsburgh, I've heard him defend Ben, on at least a couple occasions, when other "experts" tried to label him as a "game manager," etc., etc.

For him to basically reverse his position on #7 by wanting Anderson over him, it says to me that he's just looking to stir the pot.  Or, maybe he's hit the early stages of Alzheimers.
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 13:27 »

I really like Palmer, but the thing that steers me off, and it's a big thing when it comes to QBs, is he isn't clutch.  You look at his poise in the pocket, and you think he would be or should be, but I can't say I've ever seen him with the ball in his hand at the end of the game needing a score, deliver.  Some nice choppy run ons, huh?  Oh, well, screw it, I'm on a roll.  Worse yet, he always seems to shit it.  It's one thing to come up short or just run out of time.  But whenever they need him to give them that big drive, he gives it back.
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 14:26 »

Derek Anderson looks like a one-trick pony to me.  Good long ball thrower.  Maybe he crashes soon, maybe not, but he's gonna get a Matt Schaub type deal at the end of the year.  I don't see a lot of finesse in his game, no underneath stuff and no running.  If teams force him to play a high percentage game, or get in his cage and rattle him, what's he going to do?

Palmer's been exposed, IMO.  When his line was better and he had 3 solid receivers, sure he looked good.  A bit robotic, but good.  He's looked morbid at times this season, just dreadful.  You can invoke the surrounding cast argument, but then you'd have to downgrade Manning.  Brady was good without a ton of talent, but his line has always been superior, even when his WRs weren't.  Now he's flush with weapons.

I think Ben is easily in the mix of the top 3.  After that, Romo has looked pretty good, that Bills fiasco aside.  Palmer's overrated, but top third tier.  Favre can still sling it; even with his down years and tendency to take risks, he's still one of the toughest sumumbishes out there.

McNabb looks like he's lost some of his sharpness.  Eli is a dead middle of the pack QB IMO.  Hasselbeck was also exposed this year.  I think Rivers has shown some good stuff, but early on this year it wasn't clicking.  I'd probably say Rivers is top 10, though.  

Blah blah.

Manning, Brady, Ben.

29 other guys.

End of story.
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 14:56 »

Derek Anderson = Phirrip Livers = Greatness
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 15:21 »

yeah, maybe Carson Palmer is going to have a Drew Bledsoe trajectory.

A tall and accurate thrower with little feel for gutting out wins, who will usually put up stats that suggest a better player.

For some reason, I just don't buy Romo. A younger Tommy Maddox, I think, who's playing right now with a very good surrounding group of 10. As that cast diminishes, either because of age or the salary cap forces some cuts, Romo's play diminishes.

If the Steelers play the 'Boys in the Super Bowl, we crush them.  
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 17:12 »

Carson Palmer couldn't hold Roethlisberger's jock.

They aren't in the same class. Every time they play Ben kicks his ass.

Ben is a Super Bowl winning QB and Palmer's never won a playoff game.

Ben bangs celebs and has a famous sandwich named after him. Carson  plays cornhole and deepthroats hot dogs.
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 17:42 »

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yeah, maybe Carson Palmer is going to have a Drew Bledsoe trajectory.

A tall and accurate thrower with little feel for gutting out wins, who will usually put up stats that suggest a better player.

For some reason, I just don't buy Romo. A younger Tommy Maddox, I think, who's playing right now with a very good surrounding group of 10. As that cast diminishes, either because of age or the salary cap forces some cuts, Romo's play diminishes.

If the Steelers play the 'Boys in the Super Bowl, we crush them.
Carson as a neo-Bledsoe... I try to laugh it off, and it settles in as accurate at every turn.  Seriously, is there a better analog?

I've often said Ben is a neo-Favre, but I think that needs revision.  Favre will always put up better total numbers, yardage and completions and such.  Both are good scramblers, make plays on the go, direct on the go.  I actually think Ben has a higher percentage of "magic" plays, and they are tied already in Lombardis.  They can both make bonehead mistakes, but Ben seems to be correcting that this season.  

I think Romo is nothing like Maddox, sorry.  I see him as the love child of Kurt Warner and Jeff Garcia.  No explanation for that, it just seems to fit.  Which begs the question, if Ben is not Favre, he is the love child of Favre and ________?  McNair?  Who?

One guy I think might do well in the Rivers mold is Cutler.  Didn't care for him coming out of Vandy, but he's a good fit in Denver, though their season blows mightily.  I think he'll rebound, but he would have sunk and stunk elsewhere.  

JEFFE GORGE RULZ!!!!!!! BARSTADS!!!!!!! SINGE JERF GOGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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« Reply #10 on: Nov 09, 2007 at 18:05 »

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Which begs the question, if Ben is not Favre, he is the love child of Favre and ________?  

 
How about that guy from Denver?  Used to wear #7, Ben's fave QB, umm ... what was his name?
 
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 22:50 »

I know the question to Kiper (next to worthless, IMO), was who you wanted in the here and now, presumably with an above average team.  But the real question is who you want in the longer run.

OK, Brady is Montana, with Manning functioning as this generation's Dan Marino.  That doesn't leave a lot of room for comparison on their ends.

Romo is two years older than Big Ben, BTW.  When I first saw Rothlisberger, with his ability to roll out, throw deep, and sorta take care of the ball, I thought about Boomer Esiason, but this is actually a more appropriate match for Romo.  Boomer's big years were from Age 24-30, including some ultra-high YPA numbers.  Romo looks like he'll have the same career arc, which ain't bad.

I don't like the BBR-Elway comparison, nor the one with Favre's gunslinger genre.  Nobody outside of Marino had the arm strength of those two.  Elway's numbers didn't get really good until he had a running game, and he has a lot of picks for a HOF'er.  Elway also ran far more than Ben does.

Aikman has similar numbers to this class, but was working behind an all-time O-line.  Young's a tough comparison for similar reasons.

My take on this is that Big Ben is an improved and larger version of Jim Kelly.  Tough guy, runs effectively about twice a game, top tier YPA, relatively low pick percentage.  Ben does everything that Kelly did, except just a little better.  Kelly also didn't throw a gazillion times a year (unlike an Elway or Marino).  So I say he's somewhere between Kelly and Elway.

I know that doesn't put Roethlisberger in the Top 5 of all time, but does stick him on a HOF track.  I don't know that anyone other than Brady or Manning can say that among current QB's in their prime.  E. Manning, Rivers, Brees, etc. will be able to retire with decent numbers, but they will ultimately lack the physical tools to be in this class.  They'll have years that look like parts of Dave Kreig's career.

Palmer could potentially rise above this secondary crop, but like Finny sez, the guy's a friggin' robot.

Further, Favre might make the Pro Bowl play next year, for all anyone knows.  If so, he might be able to put a few records out of Peyton's reach.  I suspect that Indy will continue to build a passing offense around Manning that will keep him in the league for another decade, despite the disaster on Sunday.

Can't believe that the Steelers have the #2 seed for the moment.
« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2007 at 23:42 by padgfrombf » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 13, 2007 at 06:22 »

Mike and Mike had a discussion of the top QBs under the age of 27 (had to fit Romo  in their discussion). They had Ben #1, Palmer #2, Romo, #3. Finally some recognition for what we have known since Ben's rookie year.
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 13, 2007 at 08:23 »

Quote

My take on this is that Big Ben is an improved and larger version of Jim Kelly.  Tough guy, runs effectively about twice a game, top tier YPA, relatively low pick percentage.  Ben does everything that Kelly did, except just a little better.  Kelly also didn't throw a gazillion times a year (unlike an Elway or Marino).  So I say he's somewhere between Kelly and Elway.

 
I think you are dead on. Until this year, I kind of thought Ben was more Kelly-esque, but Kelly was never as mobile and threw as much on the run as Ben is doing now.

I think Kelly was better in the pocket than Ben (at least, to this point), but also had better pass protection, so, that might not be the fairest comparison.

I'll take the Kelly and Elway combo. With a dash of (as one sports columnist noted)  Doug Flutie.  
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 13, 2007 at 15:11 »

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Mike and Mike had a discussion of the top QBs under the age of 27 (had to fit Romo  in their discussion). They had Ben #1, Palmer #2, Romo, #3. Finally some recognition for what we have known since Ben's rookie year.
From the discussion I heard (which was around 9 AM), Golic took Ben 1st while Greenie waffled all over the place.  The first time he talked about it, he went with Palmer.  Then, when they brought Schlereth on, he said Romo.  To his credit, he kept saying that it was a very tough decision and he really didn't know who he would take if push came to shove.

So much of what the "experts" say is pegged in the here and now though.  Ben and Romo have been the better of those three this year so it's not really surprising that they're getting the nod over Palmer.

What did kinda irk me about the discussion was the reference (again) to supporting cast and how Ben and Romo are really benefiting from being on "good" teams while Palmer's team "is a mess this year" (or something to that effect).  Good QBs are supposed to make their teams better.  IMO, that's what Ben and Romo have been doing.  In '04, Ben inherited 90% of a "good team" that went a monster 6-10 the year before.  I can't remember off the top of my head if all 22 starters were the same from the prior year.  I think there were maybe one or two changes on both sides of the ball, tops.  They proceed to go 15-1 in '04 and win the SB in '05.  The early part of Romo's career is very similar.  Takes over a team that was fighting mediocrity with Bledsoe as their QB and turns them into a Conference powerhouse.  If it wasn't for him, Dallas doesn't make the playoffs last year and unfortunately, because of his FG gaffe, they get bounced from them too.  If it wasn't for that mistake though, I'm pretty convinced that Dallas goes to the S.B. instead of Chicago.  They sure seem to be on the same track this year too.  Sound familiar?

I really think that when they talk about this younger crop of QBs (< 27 or 28), Ben and Romo will be the class of the group, by a lot.  I see both of those guys producing on a consistently high level.  Yeah, guys like Palmer, Cutler, E.Manning, Anderson and Rivers will have decent to good statistical seasons here and there.  But, if you want guys that just flat out know what it takes to win, I'll take #7 and #9 over any of the others.  
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