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Author Topic: Play Calling  (Read 2475 times)
Big Virgil
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« on: Nov 11, 2007 at 19:57 »

What do you think of the run play on 3rd down on the last Steeler possession?

I have to agree with Phil Simms that you have to go for the 1st down.  Be agressive and put the game away.  Steeler tradition is what they ended up doing, and if not for the penalty on the Browns, we probably lose that game.

If the 3rd down pass goes incomplete, they have more time on the clock, but who knows.
 
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:02 »

Yeah, I hear your point.  I agreed with the call at the time and I still do.  The D was surging and I just thought it would take a miracle for the Browns to score.


As it turns out, they never even got in field goal range.

*snicker*
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:04 »

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What do you think of the run play on 3rd down on the last Steeler possession?

I have to agree with Phil Simms that you have to go for the 1st down.  Be agressive and put the game away.  Steeler tradition is what they ended up doing, and if not for the penalty on the Browns, we probably lose that game.

If the 3rd down pass goes incomplete, they have more time on the clock, but who knows.
I would've like a few more runs to the right to mix it up.  Maybe a sweep or 2?  Just to mix it up anyway.

We won the game.  Ben looks great.

Blood pressure went up on the Holmes reverse in the 1st.
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:04 »

Actually, they DID get into field goal range. Thank god this was on a wet Heinz Field. If this was on a dry field, or in good weather, I'm afraid that the Stains make that kick.

We should've passed on that 3rd.  
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:26 »

I had more of a problem with the reverse pass on 3rd and one, and the continual call of play-action to look for the deep ball on 2nd down.  If you're going to do that, do it on 1st down; or better yet, just don't do it at all.  Clearly the Browns had our number on that and it wasn't going to work.  
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:31 »

It looked like Holmes was open, several times, for a TD but the O-line didn't hold up on any of those plays.

What a freakin catch by Ward on that ball that was3 feet behind him.  Miller with a huge TD (notice I didn't say catch).  That was a sweet snag on what looked to be a rocket from Roethlisberger.
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 20:33 »

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Actually, they DID get into field goal range.
Looked to me like the kick was on target, but fell 5 yards short.  That would mean they were out of range, no?

Quote
Thank god this was on a wet Heinz Field. If this was on a dry field, or in good weather, I'm afraid that the Stains make that kick.

Wouldn't you expect your coach to factor this into his decision making process?  
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 21:36 »

I was getting pretty tired of the run to the left side for one yard on every first down. I would have preferred more passes early in the game, and by passes, I mean passes with Ben...not Holmes or Parker. I thought Mike Mularkey or Ken Whisnehunt was back in the saddle today.

 
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 21:49 »

correct me if i'm wrong, but didnt the Steelers call a passing play on that third down, and Ben took a sack rather than forcing it in there or having the clock stop with an incomplete pass?

i could have sworn the playcall was Ben in shotgun, he dropped back and then stepped up and was sacked.  it was a "safe" pass play, either it was going to be a quick out, or Ben was going to take the sack, but i do believe a pass play was called.

again, i could be wrong, but thats what i remember.
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 21:52 »

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correct me if i'm wrong, but didnt the Steelers call a passing play on that third down, and Ben took a sack rather than forcing it in there or having the clock stop with an incomplete pass?

i could have sworn the playcall was Ben in shotgun, he dropped back and then stepped up and was sacked.  it was a "safe" pass play, either it was going to be a quick out, or Ben was going to take the sack, but i do believe a pass play was called.

again, i could be wrong, but thats what i remember.
You're right on the formation, but it looked to me like a designed QB draw.
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 21:53 »

My biggest issue with that last series was the run right up the gut on 1st down.

IMO, the Steelers should've gone play action deep to Holmes on the very first play of the series- one shot to single-handedly put the game away.  Holmes had beat his man deep 3 times earlier in that game, and the Browns had enough guys stacked in the box to stop the run that I really doubt if they'd have safety help deep.

I have a real problem with the Steelers trying to run out the clock...

Only up by 3...

And on their own 15-yard line.


I've questioned Arians' playcalling on and off throughout the year, but those three plays in their last series could've easily taken the game to overtime.  They were that bad.


.WiH.
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 21:54 »

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correct me if i'm wrong, but didnt the Steelers call a passing play on that third down, and Ben took a sack rather than forcing it in there or having the clock stop with an incomplete pass?

i could have sworn the playcall was Ben in shotgun, he dropped back and then stepped up and was sacked.  it was a "safe" pass play, either it was going to be a quick out, or Ben was going to take the sack, but i do believe a pass play was called.

again, i could be wrong, but thats what i remember.
I thought it was a designed QB draw...and I hated the play. In fact all three plays on that drive almost cost us the game.
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 22:28 »

I thought the play call was a little wierd at certain times.

As someone pointed out in a post earlier in the year,  BA appears to get a little too cute. For example, the 3rd and 1 reverse.  Why not go with a quick out or slant and get that yard?

I think they should have thrown it on the third at the end of the game... why give Cleveland a chance to win it?
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 11, 2007 at 23:04 »

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I thought the play call was a little wierd at certain times.

As someone pointed out in a post earlier in the year,  BA appears to get a little too cute. For example, the 3rd and 1 reverse.  Why not go with a quick out or slant and get that yard?

I think they should have thrown it on the third at the end of the game... why give Cleveland a chance to win it?
I think they should have had Dookie roll out with an Halfback option pass on third and long.  It worked so effectively with Parker in the RZ, they never would have expected it again when we were backed up.   :rolleyes:

The big fuck up on the last drive was Rossum letting the ball roll 15 more yards by not fielding the punt in the first place more than anything.  Had that special teamer, and i use that term loosly, fair caught the ball at least, we would have seen a little better offensive play calling.  backed up and with only holding a 3 point lead, there was no fucking way BA or Tomlin wanted anything exotic.  safe, safe, safe, punt.
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 07:57 »

The play calls on our last drive were correct. Look at the result -- the only reason the Browns had to try that long-ass field goal was because we took off every second of clock we could.

We wouldn't have done that if we would have risked an incompletion.

Maybe on one of those plays, you call a play-action roll out which is designed for Ben to run it unless there's a guy wide open, but even then....you put the ball in play like that, it bounces off a guy's hands, you've got maybe an interception going the other way.

They made the right calls on that drive.  
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 09:15 »

They most certainly did not.

Were it not for a poorly timed holding call on Cleveland's part, the Browns would've gotten the ball past the 50 yard line with a little over one minute to play.

You can't put a team- any team- in that position that late in the game.  You risk either losing the game, or at least going to overtime.

Horrible series of plays.  The Steelers were playing to run out the clock when they should've still been playing to put the game away.


.WiH.
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 09:30 »

I agree. On the third down they should have tried a short pass to either Miller or Ward and let them try to get the first. If they do the game is over.

It is a tough decision because if they drop the ball you stop the clock and help the Browns out, but the Steelers were converting 3rd downs all day long.
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 09:53 »

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The big fuck up on the last drive was Rossum letting the ball roll 15 more yards by not fielding the punt in the first place more than anything.  Had that special teamer, and i use that term loosly, fair caught the ball at least, we would have seen a little better offensive play calling.  backed up and with only holding a 3 point lead, there was no fucking way BA or Tomlin wanted anything exotic.  safe, safe, safe, punt.
From the PG..

There were other problems as well. The Steelers had only 10 players on the field when the Browns quickly punted late in the fourth quarter, forcing Harrison to run on the field at the last minute. That caused Rossum, who said he was counting players, to refuse a fair catch and let the ball roll to the Steelers' 11.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 09:59 »

I had a big issues with:

Run plays to the left
Having Santonio Holmes attempt to throw a pass on 3rd and 2 on the team's first drive, a drive where Big Ben (you know, the guy who should be throwing the ball) attempted no passes.
Attempting a halfback pass with Willie Parker
The last three plays of the game
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 10:00 »

That doesn't make sense.

It'd be one thing if he was planning on returning the ball, and knew that he didn't have enough blockers in front of him...

...but you could be the only player on the field for the return team, and that still wouldn't prevent you from making the fair catch.  And if you bobble it, it doesn't matter if there are 9 guys or 10 guys from your team out there on the field with you- the punting team is probably going to recover.

I think Rossum was just making excuses to try to cover up his own fuckup.


.WiH.
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 11:01 »

I understand the desire to put the game away with a first down, but I think I have to agree that considering the field position and the way the defense had been playing, especially in the second half, it was a very reasonable play.  You can label it the "safe" play if you want, but too many things can go wrong on a pass that can hurt you.  

Scenarios where I would consider passing:

1.  3rd and less than 5.
2.  Better field position (outside the 30).
3.  Leading by any score other than 3.  That sounds a little strange, but my reasoning is that if you're leading by less than 3, obviously a FG beats you, so you don't want to give them the ball back; if you're leading by more than 3, the opponent must have a TD, so you have more wiggle room if you don't get the first and stop the clock.  If you're ahead by 3, teams tend to get conservative in FG range and don't go aggressively for the TD and outright win, so the extra time won't hurt you as much.

If one or more of these situations are in play, I may go for it.  None of those applied yesterday, so I don't have aproblem with going conservative and running the clock.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 11:37 »

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I understand the desire to put the game away with a first down, but I think I have to agree that considering the field position and the way the defense had been playing, especially in the second half, it was a very reasonable play.  You can label it the "safe" play if you want, but too many things can go wrong on a pass that can hurt you.  

Scenarios where I would consider passing:

1.  3rd and less than 5.
2.  Better field position (outside the 30).
3.  Leading by any score other than 3.  That sounds a little strange, but my reasoning is that if you're leading by less than 3, obviously a FG beats you, so you don't want to give them the ball back; if you're leading by more than 3, the opponent must have a TD, so you have more wiggle room if you don't get the first and stop the clock.  If you're ahead by 3, teams tend to get conservative in FG range and don't go aggressively for the TD and outright win, so the extra time won't hurt you as much.

If one or more of these situations are in play, I may go for it.  None of those applied yesterday, so I don't have aproblem with going conservative and running the clock.
 :sheep2:  
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 14:04 »

I don't understand the criticism here of the play calling; seems it's all built around a "but if it hadn't worked..." speculation.  It did work, the clock wound down before they get into field goal range on a windy, wet day facing the river.  All of this must have been a factor in Tomlin's decision.  


The play calling was correct.  How do we know it was correct?  It worked; we won.

Q.E.D.
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 14:58 »

I think msdmnr spells out the if-thens well, but I respectfully disagree with Penso's It worked ergo it was the right call.  Down three, perhaps you follow msdmnr's playcard and don't play a high risk set of calls, but the safe-safe-safe-punt doesn't ensure Penso's win.  In fact, a penalty ensured that; without the penalty, Dawkins is in range and accurate.  We didn't create our fate with that playcalling, we allowed the Brownies to dictate their own fate, which they stupidly crapped away with the penalty.  To say it was the right set of calls ignores that the outcome was far from clear, and that against a more disciplined team the whole comback is for naught.

 
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 15:01 »

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To say it was the right set of calls ignores that the outcome was far from clear, and that against a more disciplined team the whole comback is for naught.
True, but that's the point. We weren't playing a more competent team -- we were playing a team that hadn't had a first down up to that point in the entire half.

Moreover, the score is critical -- if we were up by only 2, there's no question we would have had to more aggressively pursue a first down.

Anyway, I agree with msdmnr's spelling out of the strategy. I'd add one thing -- running doesn't mean giving up. It's possible we could have picked up the first down running. Maybe it's a matter of not calling the right running plays in particular.
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 17:37 »

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I think msdmnr spells out the if-thens well, but I respectfully disagree with Penso's It worked ergo it was the right call.  Down three, perhaps you follow msdmnr's playcard and don't play a high risk set of calls, but the safe-safe-safe-punt doesn't ensure Penso's win.  In fact, a penalty ensured that; without the penalty, Dawkins is in range and accurate.  We didn't create our fate with that playcalling, we allowed the Brownies to dictate their own fate, which they stupidly crapped away with the penalty.  To say it was the right set of calls ignores that the outcome was far from clear, and that against a more disciplined team the whole comback is for naught.
Well, we'll have to disrespectively disagree irregardless of what our agreeing should of been.

It still seems to me that people focus on the hypothetical ("What if we had passed for a first?  What if they don't get penalized?") rather than the facts that were facing Tomlin at the time.  Field position and condition, time on the clock, weather and the fact that they didn't have a first down in the second half, or timeouts remaining.  
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 18:44 »

IT'S NOT FARE!!!  BA AND TOMLINS ARE HUMAN BEANS!!! *SOB*  BUT YOU HATE THEMS AND HATE THEMS AND YOU CAN'T JUST NOT HATE THEM!!!  WHY CAN'T WE JUST BE IN AGREEANCE?!  JUST LET'S ALLL BEE IN AGREEANCE!!A1!

 
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 21:10 »

i say when in doubt, throw it to Miller.
 
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 22:30 »

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From the PG..

There were other problems as well. The Steelers had only 10 players on the field when the Browns quickly punted late in the fourth quarter, forcing Harrison to run on the field at the last minute. That caused Rossum, who said he was counting players, to refuse a fair catch and let the ball roll to the Steelers' 11

definitley BS on Rossums part...even if there were only 10 peeps on the field, how freaking long does it take to 10?  and If i recall, the punt was near the sideline anyway, regardless of the amount of players on the field.  You field that fucker and step out of bounds.

anyway, I think it was the right playcalling considering where the steelers were on the field.  im sure there would be a few unhappy campers in here had BA called a pass play that either went intercepted for a pick six.  or an incomplete that stopped the clock and gave those boners more time to work with.  Besides, the only type of pass play that would have been acceptable or available was  a deep steaker to towards the sidelines.  i highly doubt any inside pass to heat or some other TE would have worked with 10 stainers crowding the FD box
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 12, 2007 at 22:34 »

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Besides, the only type of pass play that would have been acceptable or available was a deep steaker to towards the sidelines.


Deep steaker?  I hardly know her!
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 13, 2007 at 14:48 »

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Quote
I think msdmnr spells out the if-thens well, but I respectfully disagree with Penso's It worked ergo it was the right call.  Down three, perhaps you follow msdmnr's playcard and don't play a high risk set of calls, but the safe-safe-safe-punt doesn't ensure Penso's win.  In fact, a penalty ensured that; without the penalty, Dawkins is in range and accurate.  We didn't create our fate with that playcalling, we allowed the Brownies to dictate their own fate, which they stupidly crapped away with the penalty.  To say it was the right set of calls ignores that the outcome was far from clear, and that against a more disciplined team the whole comback is for naught.
Well, we'll have to disrespectively disagree irregardless of what our agreeing should of been.

It still seems to me that people focus on the hypothetical ("What if we had passed for a first?  What if they don't get penalized?") rather than the facts that were facing Tomlin at the time.  Field position and condition, time on the clock, weather and the fact that they didn't have a first down in the second half, or timeouts remaining.
I agree with the agree-to-disagree assessment and the post-agree-to-disagree post-assessment of working with available data.

Thing is, you have to account for contingincies.  If we punt the ball, how much time do they have, what are the chances we can hold them off the board, etc.  Bottom line, when we made that final punt I was uneasy about the outcome.  Arians doesn't know what lies ahead: punt returns, penalties, quick outs, missed tackles, whatever.  But he has to account for these contingencies, and minimizing the opponent's opportunites to advance the ball.

I don't agree that he did that.  
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 13, 2007 at 17:31 »

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Bottom line, when we made that final punt I was uneasy about the outcome.  Arians doesn't know what lies ahead: punt returns, penalties, quick outs, missed tackles, whatever.  But he has to account for these contingencies, and minimizing the opponent's opportunites to advance the ball.

I don't agree that he did that.
Really?  Even factoring the weather, the lack of timeouts, and the dominance of the defence?


I guess we'll never solve this argument.  it's all good, as long as you didn't turn it off in disgust with 1:00 remaining, having better things to do and whatnot.
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