Maximum Grilled Steelers Forum
Oct 25, 2014 at 07:38 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Calendar Media Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Heads must roll  (Read 3108 times)
aj_law
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 5534
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,098


« Reply #20 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:09 »

Quote
I seem to recall the Browns offense being quite good the one year Arians was their offensive coordinator with a pretty shoddy group of players. I mean, Kelly Holcomb, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcut, Quincy Morgan and Andre Davis put up almost 600 (or something insane like that) yards of offense in a playoff game at Heinz Field.


Greatest game ever, by the way.
I wouldn't be too quick to annoint an offense as "good" just because they lit up a Steeler secondary consisting of Charred Scott, Duhwayne Washington, Burnt Alexander and Flowers.

I don't think Cleveland has even sniffed being a top 10 offense (this year aside) since the Kosar/Byner/Mack/Slaughter era.

And, if it's not the greatest game, it's gotta be top 3, at least.
« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:09 by aj_law » Logged

We suck because our drafts have been THE SUCK.
Finnegans Wake
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 12194
Offline Offline

Posts: 22,326



« Reply #21 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:24 »

Quote
I assume he came to the 'Burgh on Arians' recommendation from their pairing with the Browns and on relatively short notice.  Interesting that he's been an OL coach for virtually his entire 30 year career.  To be fair, and noted earlier, the PSO were already getting away from pure power football after 2004.

If Faneca leaves after this year, maybe the PSO bites the bullet and goes with a ZBS.  If so, they are going to need a TE that can actually block some.
I've often wondered if we shouldn't go to more a ZBS scheme.  The strengths of our offense aren't Kordell managing the safe passing game as Bussy batters the opposing lines.  It's Ben, making plays on the fly, with FWP zipping when he can.  Totally different dynamic, perhaps a ZBS would better serve?  

Or at least, more ZBS in the mix.  Retain some power plays and blocking schemes.  Do most ZBS teams run a pure zone scheme, or do they mix it up, a la 3-4 teams playing 4-3 sometimes?
Logged

Out of my mind on Saturday night...
aj_law
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 5534
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,098


« Reply #22 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:26 »

Quote
Quote
Nothing seems smooth and crisp. Everything seems to be a struggle.

That's a good way to put it.  We seem to be "stumbling" into plays, even successful ones, rather than executing them.
Here I am watching the lead-in to MNF, debating whether I should take the Vikes and lay the points (smartly, for once this year, I decided against...) and they're showing some nice looking Tavaris Jackson highlights.

All season, I think I watched maybe one half of a Minnesota game earlier this year and save for the usual ESPN AP highlights, haven't seen much else of them.  So, I'm actually looking forward to seeing this kid in action as a lot of the preseason talk surrounding him was that he was a "terrible" NFL QB prospect; "shouldn't be starting;" "will make a nice backup someday;" blah, blah, blah...

Shortly into the first quarter, this kid is looking pretty good.  Nice PAP; looks confident; pretty good touch on a RB screen over a couple defenders; eludes the rush on another play and hits Taylor in the flat; 5 step drop on another play...BAM!...zings it to somebody; 3 step drop...BAM!...quick shot to some dude dressed in purple posing as a WR.

THEE whole time they're doing this I'm thinking to myself, if their OC can make Jackson look intermittedly competent with a nice rhythm passing game, you mean to tell me that Arians can't do that much with a guy like #7 and weapons in #10, #86 and #83?

Sure, TJ made some bad tosses and one of his INTs looked like he was shooting a 3 pointer from the top of the arc, but I gotta say, he played much better than I expected.  And, I think a big part of that was the OC putting him in the best possible position to be effective.

Ask yourself this, when was the last time you saw a game highlight or replay where Ben was taking a 5 step drop then throwing to a spot where the WR hasn't even made his cut yet?

I sure as hell don't remember any.

Yet, I've seen QB after QB after mediocre QB make those plays over and over and over again.  I watch a lot of other games and when you see guys like Kitna or Hasselbeck or Warner or Orton or Tavaris motherfucking Jackson doing it, repeatedly, I gotta ask, "why can't Ben do it?"  If we assume he's capable, which I think is a reasonable assumption, then, it's gotta be on the guy that carries that laminated T.G.I. Friday's look-alike menu thing that's holding them back.
« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:28 by aj_law » Logged

We suck because our drafts have been THE SUCK.
Hercules50.
No longer a N00b!
**

Karma: 102
Offline Offline

Posts: 90



« Reply #23 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:29 »

Quote
Quote
I assume he came to the 'Burgh on Arians' recommendation from their pairing with the Browns and on relatively short notice.  Interesting that he's been an OL coach for virtually his entire 30 year career.  To be fair, and noted earlier, the PSO were already getting away from pure power football after 2004.

If Faneca leaves after this year, maybe the PSO bites the bullet and goes with a ZBS.  If so, they are going to need a TE that can actually block some.
I've often wondered if we shouldn't go to more a ZBS scheme.  The strengths of our offense aren't Kordell managing the safe passing game as Bussy batters the opposing lines.  It's Ben, making plays on the fly, with FWP zipping when he can.  Totally different dynamic, perhaps a ZBS would better serve?  

Or at least, more ZBS in the mix.  Retain some power plays and blocking schemes.  Do most ZBS teams run a pure zone scheme, or do they mix it up, a la 3-4 teams playing 4-3 sometimes?
I read an in-depth article somewhere (possibly football outsiders) that said that most teams run a combination but some are pure, with the Broncos given as an example of using ZBS on nearly every play and the Steelers as the team on the other end of the spectrum, virtually never going ZBS.

And yes, I have thought that Willie, being a speedy one-cut runner, would put of Terrell Davis-like numbers in a Denver system.

And I bet it wouldn't hurt Ben's numbers, either. His game is a lot like Elway's, and that fit the Denver scheme.  
Logged
Finnegans Wake
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 12194
Offline Offline

Posts: 22,326



« Reply #24 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 13:50 »

I'm really not inclined to ax any coaches this year.  If Zeirlein goes, I won't cry, but even there, how much is coaching and how much is (lack of) talent?  As for BA, I think he's been inconsistent, but not outside of the Mularkey-Whisenhunt continuum.  Again: better line play, better execution of O?  

Just look at two division rivals.  The Bengals had one smooth motherfukcing offense for the Palmer years... but then they let Steinbach go, and Anderson's been hurt.  Suddenly they're playing like turds.

Opposite end: Browns couldn't get a spark going with a couple of twigs, a gallon of kerosene and a Zippo last year, and this year they add Steinbach and Thomas and get the center situation resolved: BAM, they're explosive.  

It's easy to overlook the truism that it all starts in the lines, but seeing how quickly Ben's pocket has collapsed, not just Sunday but at times all season, and seeing how our guys get blown backwards on running plays, is it any wonder the offense sputters?  Without Aaron Smith, teams gouge us running right.  Again, we need to solidify the line on D, and get better depth, or we'll see this happen more and more.

I guess you could make a case for Lig getting canned, but it's been an ongoing problem here.  I'd like to know if there's some systemic issue we're not seeing.  
Logged

Out of my mind on Saturday night...
padgfrombf
Member
***

Karma: 157
Offline Offline

Posts: 345


WWW
« Reply #25 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 15:34 »

Quote
I guess you could make a case for Lig getting canned, but it's been an ongoing problem here.  I'd like to know if there's some systemic issue we're not seeing.
Agree with that, Finny.  Some teams just seem to have bad ST's year after year, so you do wonder if it's the HC, a team carrying 10 offensive linemen, or a front office that overspends on its top end and is filling out the roster (read, ST) with Div. I talent.  Who knows?

I won't throw in the towel in 2008 if the entire coaching staff returns, but would sure like to see a little less of the same ol', same ol'.  Other than injury, what we had in Week 5 looks a lot like what we have in Week 15.  Good for the Pats, not so much for the PS.

I saw the same thing, Herc, and will add that all teams have Cover 2, zone blitz, and ZBS in the playbook.  It just looks like the PSO has gone away from the strong mobile 305# linemen in favor of bigger guys that would seem more effective in the tandem ZBS blocks.  At least Tomlin knows what that stuff is supposed to look like.
Logged
LambertsFrontTeeth
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 1617
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,462



« Reply #26 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 18:06 »

Quote
All season, I think I watched maybe one half of a Minnesota game earlier this year and save for the usual ESPN AP highlights, haven't seen much else of them.  So, I'm actually looking forward to seeing this kid in action as a lot of the preseason talk surrounding him was that he was a "terrible" NFL QB prospect; "shouldn't be starting;" "will make a nice backup someday;" blah, blah, blah...

Shortly into the first quarter, this kid is looking pretty good.  Nice PAP; looks confident; pretty good touch on a RB screen over a couple defenders; eludes the rush on another play and hits Taylor in the flat; 5 step drop on another play...BAM!...zings it to somebody; 3 step drop...BAM!...quick shot to some dude dressed in purple posing as a WR.

THEE whole time they're doing this I'm thinking to myself, if their OC can make Jackson look intermittedly competent with a nice rhythm passing game, you mean to tell me that Arians can't do that much with a guy like #7 and weapons in #10, #86 and #83?

 
I think a lot of this is due to both a tremendous running back tandem and a fantastic offensive line.  Remember what a commitment that team made, paying for Hutch, etc.

We have one really good back, one decent one, (neither as good as AD), and a shitty, shitty line (I'd trade ANY three of our linemen for Hutchinson, straight up).

Kinda apples and oranges, if you ask me.
« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2007 at 18:07 by LambertsFrontTeeth » Logged

"Dreith said I hit Sipe too hard. I hit him as hard as I could. Brian has a chance to go out of bounds and he decides not to. He knows I'm going to hit him. And I do. History."
- - - Jack Lambert, after referee Ben Dreith ejected him from a game for knocking out Browns QB Brian Sipe.
Y2Joyce
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 2549
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,861



« Reply #27 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 18:27 »

Arians's Cleveland units ranked 31st, 23rd, and 26th in total O.

He blows.
Logged

Steelers 58-15 when I am in attendance.
pensodyssey
Halfsharkalligator halfman.
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 8122
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,727



« Reply #28 on: Dec 18, 2007 at 20:40 »

Quote
Arians's Cleveland units ranked 31st, 23rd, and 26th in total O.

He blows.
Yep.  I bet he cheated in college, too.
« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2007 at 20:41 by pensodyssey » Logged

A shabby Charlie Brown.
Preacherman0
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 5808
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,824



WWW
« Reply #29 on: Dec 19, 2007 at 09:38 »

Quote
I've often wondered if we shouldn't go to more a ZBS scheme. The strengths of our offense aren't Kordell managing the safe passing game as Bussy batters the opposing lines. It's Ben, making plays on the fly, with FWP zipping when he can. Totally different dynamic, perhaps a ZBS would better serve?

My boy switched schools this year to a team that runs ZBS.  He hates it, I hate it, and I have no idea how teams are able to make it work.  But, when you look at Denver, how can you argue with success?  I do think that one of the keys is having a quicker line--better at angles and movement rather than just whipping guys at the POA.  This would seem to fit with guys that pull very well (Simmons, Faneca) and guys that clearly can't win the battle off the ball (Mahan).  Not sure how it would play with our rather slow-footed tackles.  My boy's more of a "head-to-head" kind of player, and that's what he played up until this year, so he's really struggled with the scheme.


Quote
Ask yourself this, when was the last time you saw a game highlight or replay where Ben was taking a 5 step drop then throwing to a spot where the WR hasn't even made his cut yet?

I sure as hell don't remember any.

And this is my issue with BA.  It's the SSDD.  Same plays out of the same formations.  Same passes out of the same formations.  We're either going two runs/pass/punt when we're not running the ball well; or, we're going pass/pass/pass punt when FWP is averaging 7 a carry.

Whether it's a firing or making adjustments to what we're doing, something's got to change with the coaching, no matter how bad the oline.  You have to adjust to the personnel that you have.
Logged

We have traded Christ for the religion of Christianity.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
| Sitemap
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!