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Author Topic: Willie Reid  (Read 1833 times)
otismalibu
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« on: Dec 30, 2007 at 19:44 »

If anyone out there wants Willie Reid returning kicks, I hope you catch a couple while waving out your sunroof.

That fucking shit will kill you in the post season.

Allen catches the ball and Allen falls down with the ball. Works for me.
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 19:51 »

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Allen catches the ball and Allen falls down with the ball. Works for me.
No doubt.  That's all you need against Jax.  They're a team you must beat by attrition.  Don't fuck up and play decent ball, that's all it takes.  

Fast Willie Reed better learn some new skills or he's out.  I don't care if it's nunchucku skills or throwing-star skills, just do something well.
 
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 20:36 »

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No doubt.  That's all you need against Jax.  They're a team you must beat by attrition.  Don't fuck up and play decent ball, that's all it takes.  
 
We can't have any fumbled kickoffs or punt returns next week if we want to beat the jags.  

I'd rather have Davenport returning kicks when we wasn't our starting RB. He may not brake an 80 yard return but he holds onto the ball and at least gets positive yards.

I thinks its about time to give reid the ax in the offseason, unless he learns how to hold onto the damn ball. I've seen enough of him.
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 20:53 »

Ok, feel free to unload on me.

I refuse to say that Reid is a lost cause based (solely) on his play against Baltimore.  Sure, dude sucked it up, laying it on the turf. He also has not had any playing time.  I could understand if he had butterflies.  

Now, if he has played like this during practice, and that is the reason Tomlin went out and got Rossum, then fine. I'm certainly not in a position to argue. I just don't KNOW that it the case.

If on the other hand, it was the desire to have a "veteran" return guy who won't make the big mistake -- well, as I have said before, you can't get experience without getting playing time.  That's the attitude that used to drive me crazy about Cowher.

It's not like Coclough last year, who never showed ANY aptitude returning (breakaway running ability, catching ability, etc). Reid is a guy who was explosive in college. While I recognize that doesn't mean he will translate to pro-quality, I still haven't seen enough of him to say he sucks.

You almost have to give the guy a 4 or 5 game stretch, to see how he plays once he's comfortable. Granted, the playoffs isn't that time, but, well, I doubt we can draft another return specialist next year. Might as well as give Reid his crack the first half of '08.

 
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 21:44 »

word..

he is basically a rook.. and i was just happy to see that he doesn't appear to have lost his burst to that injury..

i'm assuming he caught the ball and held on to it in college or we would not have drafted him so i'd like to think it's something he can and will get over..

and jacko is right, it's essentially been 4 months since he's seen real live action.. i'm still not ready to give up on him..  
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otismalibu
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 22:20 »

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You almost have to give the guy a 4 or 5 game stretch, to see how he plays once he's comfortable.

Do we have 5 pre-season games next year?

A turnover like that against the Browns (2nd game) or Dolphins could have cost us the playoffs. And by the looks of next year's schedule, I don't see a lot of games that we'll have the luxury of letting guys work the bugs out.

It's one thing to say he doesn't know how to follow blocks, when to cut back, when to let the punt go into the EZ, etc. The guy doesn't know how to hang onto the ball.

Willie needs to be like Pistol. Carry that ball with you all the time. Sleep with it.  
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 22:38 »

PR is a completely different animal IMO...if you dont have it, you never will.  You dont get enough game time scenerios or reps to get "comfortable" with it all.
 
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 30, 2007 at 22:45 »

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Do we have 5 pre-season games next year?

The way things are going now with the league's unquenchable thirst to promote expansion I wouldn't be surprised to see all teams playing 5 Preseason games within a year or two. I think I'll be avoiding the scrimmage with the Houston Texans backups in Darfur myself, though.


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A turnover like that against the Browns (2nd game) or Dolphins could have cost us the playoffs. And by the looks of next year's schedule, I don't see a lot of games that we'll have the luxury of letting guys work the bugs out.

You makes good points but I say "whatever". I'm not scared of next years foes. Bring em on, play our game, and we'll be lookin' like that famous Judeo-Chink law firm...

SICKSTEIN AND OH!!!!!!!!!!!

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Willie needs to be like Pistol.

Stiff-dead in a coffin?!? Cut the guy a break, man. 'Twas rainy.

 
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 02, 2008 at 15:23 »

As I said back in August, Walter Young over Reid.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 09:42 »

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As I said back in August, Walter Young over Reid.

Tru dat.
 
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 10:48 »

I disagree with the "just catch the ball mentality".  Our PR and KR return teams rank among the worst in the NFL (again).  We consistently have to deal with longer fields than just about anyone in the NFL.  Over time this becomes a bigger and bigger problem, and it ultimately causes just as many losses as does fumbles - its just less dramatic and less noticable.

Moreover, we, the fans, do not help the situation whenever someone goes back to return punts or kicks.  We hold our breath - you can virtually feel the tenseness in the air.  We boo.  We have killed off multiple 25 year old and under returners over just the past two years alone because we are not patient enough to allow whichever kid to work through his transition to NFL return duty.

Yes, they should be immune to fan to fan pressures, but the reailty is that anyone will begin to notice.  They get tenser.  They make mistakes.  How would you do if your boss just wtached you all day, hovering, waiting for you to make a mistake so he could rip your head off?  My boss is like that sometimes, and as a result people keep jumping out windows to find new jobs.

We need to give one of the kids the time and space to learn the job and its pressures.  Maybe that was the point of Rossum - to give that time and space to Reid.  I am also not arguing that Reid (or whomever) should be given forever to work through whatever issues, Reid's time is clearly almost up.  But I do think that we need to back off a bit and accept the fact that no matter who is back returning, there will be mistakes, there will be fumbles, and that just as your typical young QB, DB, or whomever is going to make mistakes (and grow from them), so to do the return game specialists.  We need to back off on this issue.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 11:44 »

I understand your post, jcharding, and would agree if we were talking about a position like, say, punter.  Or quarterback, or wide receiver or safety.  That is to say, spots where you're hopefully grooming somebody for a six, eight, ten year career.  Then you take a year's worth of limited playing time and lumps, because over time that investment will be repaid.  

But kr/pr is a position guys tend to hold for what?  Two, three years max.  Makes it seem like little ROI.  Get a damn guy who can catch the ball and head upfield.  Wily vet, hotshot rook, recycled veteran, I don't care.
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 11:54 »

I agree with Pens.  

And sadly, I haven't seen much from 15 as a WR, either.  
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 12:58 »

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Get a damn guy who can catch the ball and head upfield.  Wily vet, hotshot rook, recycled veteran, I don't care.
Which is why I don't understand why they didn't go after Tim Dwight earlier this year when he was available.  Rossum was slightly better, but he's no Dwight.  Plus, Dwight could actually play 4th or 5th WR if need be.
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 03, 2008 at 16:26 »

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I disagree with the "just catch the ball mentality".  Our PR and KR return teams rank among the worst in the NFL (again).  We consistently have to deal with longer fields than just about anyone in the NFL.  Over time this becomes a bigger and bigger problem, and it ultimately causes just as many losses as does fumbles - its just less dramatic and less noticable.

Moreover, we, the fans, do not help the situation whenever someone goes back to return punts or kicks.  We hold our breath - you can virtually feel the tenseness in the air.  We boo.  We have killed off multiple 25 year old and under returners over just the past two years alone because we are not patient enough to allow whichever kid to work through his transition to NFL return duty.

Yes, they should be immune to fan to fan pressures, but the reailty is that anyone will begin to notice.  They get tenser.  They make mistakes.  How would you do if your boss just wtached you all day, hovering, waiting for you to make a mistake so he could rip your head off?  My boss is like that sometimes, and as a result people keep jumping out windows to find new jobs.

We need to give one of the kids the time and space to learn the job and its pressures.  Maybe that was the point of Rossum - to give that time and space to Reid.  I am also not arguing that Reid (or whomever) should be given forever to work through whatever issues, Reid's time is clearly almost up.  But I do think that we need to back off a bit and accept the fact that no matter who is back returning, there will be mistakes, there will be fumbles, and that just as your typical young QB, DB, or whomever is going to make mistakes (and grow from them), so to do the return game specialists.  We need to back off on this issue.
I may be wrong, but wasn't Devon Hester, the best returner in the league (maybe in the history of the league), a rookie last year? And as a rookie, I believe he set the record for most returns for touchdowns, which he again broke this year. He didn't need a year or 2 to develop. I think returning is something a player is either really good at, or they just suck at it. Its just something that's hard to teach how to do.  

Also, I think Cleveland's Joshua Cribbs is only in his 2nd or 3rd year in the league.  
 
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 11:22 »

Not everyone develops at the same rate.  Dante Hall did virtually nothing his first two years as a PR/KR.   He exploded in year 3.
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 11:49 »

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Not everyone develops at the same rate.  Dante Hall did virtually nothing his first two years as a PR/KR.   He exploded in year 3.
That may be true, but he never handled the rock like it was nuclear.  Plus, the dude's got no wiggle.  He's all straight line speed.

IMO, he's a no brainer cut.  If it were earlier in the season, I doubt he would've still been on the roster Monday morning.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 11:54 »

On many levels I don't disagree.

On the other hand I think we have been doing him and others a grave disservice with "fandoms approach to returning", and I fear (more than any other cut in my Steeler lifetime of over 30+ years) that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 13:03 »

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I fear (more than any other cut in my Steeler lifetime of over 30+ years) that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.

I am not a "Reid needs cut now" guy but I can't help but think this is the most overly dramatic statement I have read in long time. As a returner he has showed absolutely nothing in any opportunity he has had. All I heard was how electric this cat was but I have not seen him make one single guy miss. That right there tells me he doesn't have it.

Not.One.Single.Guy.

We can't even discuss him as a receiver. In a season where Hines and Santonio have missed a good amount of time, he has only managed 4 catches? He could barely get on the field in those games.
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 13:05 »

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I fear (more than any other cut in my Steeler lifetime of over 30+ years) that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.

I am not a "Reid needs cut now" guy but I can't help but think this is the most overly dramatic statement I have read in long time. As a returner he has showed absolutely nothing in any opportunity he has had. All I heard was how electric this cat was but I have not seen him make one single guy miss. That right there tells me he doesn't have it.

Not.One.Single.Guy.

We can't even discuss him as a receiver. In a season where Hines and Santonio have missed a good amount of time, he has only managed 4 catches? He could barely get on the field in those games.
You're exactly right.  I was excited when I saw the kid in camp: returned well, caught well.  But it never translated.  How many second chances are you allowed?
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jcharding
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 13:31 »

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I fear (more than any other cut in my Steeler lifetime of over 30+ years) that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.

I am not a "Reid needs cut now" guy but I can't help but think this is the most overly dramatic statement I have read in long time.
Remember, this is coming from a person who doesn't make dramatic statements.

In any event, you all are missing my point.  I, jcharding, do hereby agree that Willie Reed has profoundly sucked during his entire Steeler career.  He has shown us absolutely nothing as a receiver or a returner.  I am also completely serious about this paragraph.  I am not sarcastic at all.  Willie Reed has honestly and truly been bad.

My point isn't whether Reed is good or bad.  My point is that we are way to focused on the travails of young players out of college.  We are making their life much much harder than it needs to be.  My one and only point is that we need to calm down and back off with respect to the return game and fumbles.  Thats it.  That is all I am saying.  Let the young players learn without ripping their heads off.

My overly dramatic point regarding Reid is that we have not given him (or just about any other returner in several years) a chance to fail and learn from those failures.  Due to this I fear that Reid is going to explode somewhere else.  And my overly dramatic point from above is that I cannot recall, ever, feeling this strongly when we were about to cut someone.   I always toe the team line on cuts.  I always understand when the cut is made.  I wasn't overly concerned when Fred Gibson went away.  I wasn't overly concerned when Danny Farmer went away.  Etc... I am this time.
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 13:48 »

A few comments:

1)  I don't think fans complaining is so comparable to a boss looking over the shoulder of a subordinate as much as fans complaining compare to customers complaining about whatever product or service they pay for.  It happens everywhere.  Employees who can't take it or don't want to take it go elsewhere, voluntarily or involuntarily.  

2)  Whether it's Pittsburgh or elsewhere, a poor performing player will hear about it.  Though the volume can change, depending on which side of PA the guy plays.  

3)  I'm not sure I want to wait 3 years for a 3rd round player to develop into a returner.  Moreso due to a 3rd rounder's contract being up after the 4th year...how much am I willing to pay for a returner?  Low paid guys like Michael Lewis, Chad Morton and now Andra Davis, do well enough to earn year-to-year contracts.  Vet min. stuff.  I'm not interested in investing a lot of money into a returner.  

I'm also not asking the returner to be Hester or Dante Hall (back when).  Nor was I expecting such of Colclough or even Holmes last year.  My minimum expectation is protecting the football.  Reid has had 6 ops this year, and has put the ball on the ground twice (one ruled a fumble, the other used a challenge to overturn).  Reid isn't Colclough bad but he isn't instilling a lot of faith.  And I think that's a statement that goes beyond fandom due to the signing of an injury-waiting-to-happen Jeremy Bloom to the PS.  

It was wet.  It was cold.  Those are the likely conditions come playoff time.  The successful players adjust.  

Now, I think Reid is a decent WR.  Not a lot of real time experience but I think he can make a greater, more immediate impact at WR than as a returner.  If he can fulfill that role, then I can impatiently wait for his progression as a returner....though I don't see how protecting the football is something that changes from college to the pros.  
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 13:51 »

Oh, it's Mr. Scacalaki and his fancy voice of reason...  :rolleyes:  
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 19:56 »

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Quote
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I fear (more than any other cut in my Steeler lifetime of over 30+ years) that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.

I am not a "Reid needs cut now" guy but I can't help but think this is the most overly dramatic statement I have read in long time.
I think it's fair to have that level of paranoia.

See " Vrabel, Cocksu....er Mike."
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 04, 2008 at 20:11 »

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I may be wrong, but wasn't Devon Hester, the best returner in the league (maybe in the history of the league), a rookie last year? And as a rookie, I believe he set the record for most returns for touchdowns, which he again broke this year.

First off, it's DevIn.

Second, he went to the U.  Thus he's immensely more physically gifted than mere dudes who went to Florida State.   :rolleyes: As if....
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