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Author Topic: FUCK YOU OVER-REACTING ASSHOLES  (Read 3006 times)
Finnegans Wake
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« on: Jan 06, 2008 at 11:44 »

How many FU threads can we get rolling?

Unpopular, but true: if this had been Cowher at HC and Whiz at OC, we'd still have lost.  Possibly by more, because they wouldn't have trusted Ben as much to make the comeback.

This team is and was inherently limited by shortcomings of talent that are correctable.  But if everyone wants to fixate on some admittedly poor playcalls and go biz-fucking-nutty about firing Arians and Tomlin and yadda fucking yadda, then go for it.  Won't do a damned thing except keep your nuts warm, but have at it.

Me, I'm looking to more reasonable improvements for 2008, starting with the draft and fixing special teams.  ALL of these FU threads would have been a NON-ISSUE if Jones-Drew hadn't had the KO return all the way to the 1.  We had them down and our defense showed it was ready to stop the run.  We could have easily gone up 14-0 or 14-3 were it not for STs, but hey, let's just bitch and bitch about the OC and HC.  

Fix STs.  Fix the OL.  Bolster the DL.  Team goes 12-4 easy, deeper into the playoffs, a true SB contender... which we were NOT, and we all knew we were NOT.

Since when am I the voice of calmness and reason on this board, LOL?!?
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:11 »

Fin I just can't see us winning 12 games next year with the schedule we have.  Why we got a harder schedule than the Cheatriots I will never understand.  I am with you on not ripping Tomlin.  when the season started I said we would go 11-5, give or take a win based on how healthy we were.  I also said that if we made it to the playoffs and won one game that it would be a very good year.  Well we fell just short of that, but with all the injuries that is OK.  

With the schedule next year I think we take a step back.  I think we are two years away from being contenders again.  It will take some time for the OL to work itself out.  I am just concerned that we will always have crapy special teams.  
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:22 »

Incidentally, I agree with your previous post. They are who we thought they were. Most of us here had the Steelers finishing anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7 (I was optimistic @ 11-5, and they almost got there). All in all, not a bad year. Just a bad way to end it.

My criticism of BA's playcalling in the JAX game stems from going away from what worked well on the first drive. Yea, the defense will adjust, but the way the OL had been blocking, and the effectiveness of the JAX rush, should have dictated more quick hits, 3 step and ball is gone type plays. Ben showed he could indeed do that, and I might add, do it well.

Put Ben is the 5-7 step drop, he starts looking for the big play. I am not complaining. I love Ben (no homo). But he does have that Favre characteristic of always looking for the big play, even if it is not there. I take the good with the bad when it comes to Ben. It is that gunslinger attitude that makes him great...and vulnerable at times. Give him that 3 step drop timing type throws, it kinda takes the big play mentality out of Ben's hands and puts it into his playmakers hands. As we all saw in the first drive and in the second half it is effective.

You ask what would we call if we were the OC. IMO, the first two downs were fine. Run the ball get to 3rd down and 4-7 (have JAX burn a timeout or two) and then try for the first down. I think a quick slant to Hines or Heath would have been effective (had been working well most of the night). I think maybe bunching up the WR  and hitting a WR screen to Ward would also had given the Steelers a better chance at a first down. Maybe they don't get the first, but at least they made an effort to do so. That I think appears to be the biggest complaint.
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:29 »

Finny,

I agree with you. Ben carried this team to 10 victories. Add some o-line and better special teams and this team will be markedly improved.

The year under Tomlin's belt will be a tremendous boost for next year. Decisions will come more naturally.

12-4 might be a stretch, but if they won 10 games next year that would be the equivilant of winning 13 this year.
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:35 »

I'm still quite pleased with the result of this season. Last night was heartbreaking, but we still had a chance no one thought we would have before the season. And we did it shorthanded, with obvious flaws, and a rookie head coach who made some rookie mistakes.

I'm disappointed we lost, yes, but i'm not upset or disappointed in the season. If that makes any sense.
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:39 »

What he said.
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:47 »

Quote
How many FU threads can we get rolling?

Unpopular, but true: if this had been Cowher at HC and Whiz at OC, we'd still have lost.  Possibly by more, because they wouldn't have trusted Ben as much to make the comeback.

This team is and was inherently limited by shortcomings of talent that are correctable.  But if everyone wants to fixate on some admittedly poor playcalls and go biz-fucking-nutty about firing Arians and Tomlin and yadda fucking yadda, then go for it.  Won't do a damned thing except keep your nuts warm, but have at it.

Me, I'm looking to more reasonable improvements for 2008, starting with the draft and fixing special teams.  ALL of these FU threads would have been a NON-ISSUE if Jones-Drew hadn't had the KO return all the way to the 1.  We had them down and our defense showed it was ready to stop the run.  We could have easily gone up 14-0 or 14-3 were it not for STs, but hey, let's just bitch and bitch about the OC and HC.  

Fix STs.  Fix the OL.  Bolster the DL.  Team goes 12-4 easy, deeper into the playoffs, a true SB contender... which we were NOT, and we all knew we were NOT.

Since when am I the voice of calmness and reason on this board, LOL?!?
Thanks Finny.
You da man on this.

I have to admit, I was prepared to lose tonite.  The first drive gave me hope.

We all know our ST is shite.  Has been from the get-go. Same with the O-line.

And I hate that we lost and I hate how we lost, but I'd much rather friggin' lose to the damn Jags that have to look at Beardy throwing the ball all over us.
And you KNOW that's what would happen next.

Draft the hell outta some O linemen, find the next Devin Hester, keep Ben from gettin' murdered back there, and we're back on top in no time.

I don't know about Arians, I can't say I know much about being an OC.  But if any of you think we should fire Tomlin, you gotta be out your damn mind.

 
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 12:59 »

Sorry, but I have to disagree about Arians.  Perhaps he moves forward with some experience under his belt, who knows?  I doubt we get rid of him, but he has made some absolutely horrendous calls/decisions this year.

As for anyone who thinks we should get rid of Tomlin, forget it.  The guy took a somewhat mediocre product and took them to a division title in his first season.  No way you start talking about firing him--plus, we know it ain't gonna happen anyway, so why even start that talk?

I think a lot of what I've written was just frustration over the loss, which is well-deserved.  We handed them that game, practically gift-wrapped it for them.  And that continues to get frustrating because we've basically done that in most of our losses for two years straight with only a few exceptions.  And we've done it in the same way--turnovers and poor special teams.  It just gets old, dude, and after doing it again last night I had to vent.

As I've stated, I saw nothing on the field that said to me, "Hey, these guys are going to challenge the Patriots."  From either team.  So really it's a moot point to talk about how we could have/should have won.  I saw nothing to indicate that we could catch lightning in a bottle (whatever the hell that means) like in 2005.  That team went in on a roll, this team waddled in with its tail between its legs.  As Finny points out, there are a ton of issues that we had to overcome--but it's frustrating that, in spite of those, it's the same old crap that bit us in the butt once again.  
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 13:15 »

Whiny ass bitches are a given on a forum like this. Every game we lose people want players, coaches, front office personnel fired. We've just gotta get used to it. Not the losing. The whiny ass bitching.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 13:23 »

24 hour rule:  We whiny asses bitches get to bitch all we want, so quit bitching about the whining.  
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 14:05 »

I mentioned something in the gamethread about the gaffes last night not being surprising.  It's what we had seen during the 1-3 stretch to end the season (.  It's what we had seen during the entire season (STs).  It's what we knew coming into the season (OL stunk).  

But excuse me for not jumping onboard the "fix it" wagon, expecting 2008 to be an improvement.  

How exactly is STs fixed?  It's been a nasty sore going on at least six years.  Different coaches, different personnel, similar results in critical games.  Does Chidi Iwuoma really deserve THAT much credit?  

How is it fixed?  Tomlin certainly gave it a decent shot prior to the start of the season.  Hired a new STs coach, along with a STs assistant coach.  Spent enough time on STs during camp to cause even STs ace Clint Kreiwaldt to complain.  Tomlin put starters on STs.  He signed another STs ace Marquis Cooper (see last night's return by MJD).  

What else can be done, other than the firing of Lig and his asst., hoping to finally get the "right" STs coach, and altering personnel?

So far as the draft goes, color me unenthusiastic as that being the golden road to glory.  Timmons was the wrong pick, plain and simple.  That the Steelers didn't have enough foresight to draft a guy like Grubbs, with the foresight originating from both of their starting guards up for FA after the season, gives me little confidence for a quick fix at OL not being a detriment to the team's other needs  The elephant in the room this off-season is DE.  The baby elephant is free safety.

Free agency.... the Steelers always seem much more cautious and thoughtful than they do in the overall draft.  But OL comes at a premium.  At least the good ones do.  But if there is hope for the 2008 Steelers, I believe it comes via FA and not the draft.

I admit that Mahan fell well short of my expectations.  Maybe his best position is guard.  Maybe it's on another team.  

Lots of fans didn't like Arians prior to the season and feel vindicated.  I've got no beef with them venting.  

I can't say I have a strong opinion one way or the other.  Remove Arians...does Ben get set back another year?  Though, Ben seems to do better calling his own plays IMO.

Quote
we were NOT, and we all knew we were NOT.

And we won't be in 2008.  

I don't believe I'm being unrealistically negative.  I think this team lacks talent beyond Roethlisberger, Holmes, Parker, and Miller on offense, and Hampton and possibly Woodley on defense.  I don't think that is corrected with one off-season.  

I expected no better than a 9-7 team and a wildcard placement.  

Although an 8-8 record in 2008 may suggest an improved team v. a 10-6 2007 record, considering the 2008 schedule.  

I didn't anticipate Tomlin's difficulties with making in-game decisions such as challenges, timeouts, etc.  But I think he'll be a good coach as he gains more experience.  

I didn't realize the lack of talent until this past off-season when guys like McFadden and Ant. Smith weren't able to yet beat out the incumbents.  

The Steelers probably weren't as good as their 10-6 record, AFCN champ status this year.  

Ben improved, Tomlin showed some good with the bad, and Holmes stepped up big time.  

The defense took giant leaps backwards, STs still sucks, and OL is a mess.  

That's where we are.  
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 14:08 »

Finny, I'll play Ol' Scratch to your Dan'l Webster on the 3:00 to go playcalling.  With Jax having 3 TO's in hand, running the clock was not the prime directive, the PS absolutely needed to get two first downs:

Jax pretty much stayed in Cover 2 all night.  Their only real defensive wrinkle was a continuous rotation of Front 7 personnel.

1D-10, Najeh over RG for 5.  I was fine with that.  Even if he only got 3 yards, it left a manageable down-and-distance and has Jax thinking run.

2D-5, run bunched trips right, Ben behind center, rolling pocket right.  That play is designed to beat a Cover 2, and the Jags had problems with that formation all night.  Ben can throw, run, or if the play breaks down, he's outta the pocket and can throw it OOB.  My opinion is that the clock is not a factor yet.

3D-5, let's assume a Matt Spaeth drop on D2.  Shotgun, start out trips right as in D2, motion Hines or Holmes left.  Slant pass to Holmes, or if the LB is reading the Holmes route, have Hines sit down for five on the opposite side of the LB.

What I didn't like about the BBR draw is that it went to our weakness at LT and there wasn't a real pass option in there.

I had a long post over at BSG with misgivings about the game and the PS.  Like most issues, there is good and bad.  Arians had a great game plan for passing the ball.  He was able to devise a scheme to beat the Jax defense, even with BBR's occasional gaffes and a patchwork line.  It's just when you get to specific game situations that Arians goes brain dead.  The PSO got away from offense in general in Q2.  All those fade patterns at the goal line.  Don't know if it's a lack of focus, but it ends up Ray Handley bad.  It's like his playcalling in the 2002 Browns game.  Wonderful offensive effort until the last couple series, capped by an inexplicable long out pattern call to Northcutt on 3rd down with the Steelers out of timeouts.  Stategic horror show that cost the Browns the game.  

FWIW, I think Arians is a wonderful WR coach and is miles ahead of a lot of guys in designing a passing game plan.  I would put value his pregame input.  It's just that he's not the complete package as OC.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2008 at 14:11 by padgfrombf » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 14:46 »

I liked your post overall, Scac, although I'm probably a little more optimistic about the current squad than you.

Still, I can't figure out what this means:

Quote
The Steelers probably weren't as good as their 10-6 record, AFCN champ status this year.

Well, we were a better team than Cincinatti, Cleveland and Baltimore.  You can argue we won a weak division, but you can't say we weren't as good as champions of that division.  Semantics maybe, but it helps deal with the disappointment of the fial game.
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 14:58 »

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I liked your post overall, Scac,

You'll probably be one of the few.

Quote
although I'm probably a little more optimistic about the current squad than you.

I do consider myself the Eeyore of the board.

Quote
Well, we were a better team than Cincinatti, Cleveland and Baltimore. You can argue we won a weak division, but you can't say we weren't as good as champions of that division. Semantics maybe, but it helps deal with the disappointment of the fial game.

Come on college grad!

My base point is we weren't as good as our record indicates.  10-6 got us into the playoffs.  More importantly, the AFCN title gave us a #4 seed and a game at home v. being a wildcard.  That's where the significance ends IMO.

The AFCN champ crown did not adequately reflect our abilities v. the competition we would face in the playoffs.  Maybe we were better than the Titans.

I don't see winning the AFCN crown this year as showing us rebounding as a team from the 2006 season.  I don't see it as a trend forward for us.  But this is probably where your optimism and my pessimism diverge.  

AFCN champs is a nice token I guess, moreso had at the time of beating Cleveland and Cinci twice than meaning anything to me now.
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 15:21 »

I dunno...maybe it's one of those things that sounds good in your brain but doesn't make sense when written.  

 
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:07 »

I agree with Finny, but would argue that we are looking at 2 years - not next year.  Even if we draft two OL and they turn out OK, it is unreasonable to expect that impact immediately.  The 08 season is going to look like this past one, with the real improvement occurring in 09.
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:11 »

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I'm still quite pleased with the result of this season. Last night was heartbreaking, but we still had a chance no one thought we would have before the season. And we did it shorthanded, with obvious flaws, and a rookie head coach who made some rookie mistakes.

I'm disappointed we lost, yes, but i'm not upset or disappointed in the season. If that makes any sense.
Makes perfect sense.  We don't always agree, DJF, but we're solid on that.  
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:18 »

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Whiny ass bitches are a given on a forum like this. Every game we lose people want players, coaches, front office personnel fired. We've just gotta get used to it. Not the losing. The whiny ass bitching.
I understand why people are upset and venting.  I've sometimes over-reacted, and maybe was too hard on Whiz, too hard on Cowher, who knows.  But as I said in another thread, people have been asking for Martz or Cameron or some other unspecified mystical OC savior, when the reality is that every OC has a handful of clunker plays every game.  I don't care who they are or how fucking smart they are, much of the effectiveness of their playcalling is determined by execution of the plays, and Arians has no idea which of his OL guys is going to fuck up a certain play, for instance.  

If Arians just reviews the tapes and cuts out some of the cutesy BS and maximizes what he has to work with, he'll be fine.  He had some very good stuff to go with the crap everyone's bitching about, and tranisitioning to a Ben-centric offense takes some adjustments.  I'm not going to call out anyone for their opinion, but jeeeez, just chill and get some perspective, sip some bourbon and root against the fucking Belicheats.  We'll be back.  We'll be fine.  We'll be better next year.
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:35 »

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I mentioned something in the gamethread about the gaffes last night not being surprising.  It's what we had seen during the 1-3 stretch to end the season (.  It's what we had seen during the entire season (STs).  It's what we knew coming into the season (OL stunk).  

But excuse me for not jumping onboard the "fix it" wagon, expecting 2008 to be an improvement.  

How exactly is STs fixed?  It's been a nasty sore going on at least six years.  Different coaches, different personnel, similar results in critical games.  Does Chidi Iwuoma really deserve THAT much credit?  

How is it fixed?  Tomlin certainly gave it a decent shot prior to the start of the season.  Hired a new STs coach, along with a STs assistant coach.  Spent enough time on STs during camp to cause even STs ace Clint Kreiwaldt to complain.  Tomlin put starters on STs.  He signed another STs ace Marquis Cooper (see last night's return by MJD).  

What else can be done, other than the firing of Lig and his asst., hoping to finally get the "right" STs coach, and altering personnel?

So far as the draft goes, color me unenthusiastic as that being the golden road to glory.  Timmons was the wrong pick, plain and simple.  That the Steelers didn't have enough foresight to draft a guy like Grubbs, with the foresight originating from both of their starting guards up for FA after the season, gives me little confidence for a quick fix at OL not being a detriment to the team's other needs  The elephant in the room this off-season is DE.  The baby elephant is free safety.

Free agency.... the Steelers always seem much more cautious and thoughtful than they do in the overall draft.  But OL comes at a premium.  At least the good ones do.  But if there is hope for the 2008 Steelers, I believe it comes via FA and not the draft.

I admit that Mahan fell well short of my expectations.  Maybe his best position is guard.  Maybe it's on another team.  

Lots of fans didn't like Arians prior to the season and feel vindicated.  I've got no beef with them venting.  

I can't say I have a strong opinion one way or the other.  Remove Arians...does Ben get set back another year?  Though, Ben seems to do better calling his own plays IMO.

Quote
we were NOT, and we all knew we were NOT.

And we won't be in 2008.  

I don't believe I'm being unrealistically negative.  I think this team lacks talent beyond Roethlisberger, Holmes, Parker, and Miller on offense, and Hampton and possibly Woodley on defense.  I don't think that is corrected with one off-season.  

I expected no better than a 9-7 team and a wildcard placement.  

Although an 8-8 record in 2008 may suggest an improved team v. a 10-6 2007 record, considering the 2008 schedule.  

I didn't anticipate Tomlin's difficulties with making in-game decisions such as challenges, timeouts, etc.  But I think he'll be a good coach as he gains more experience.  

I didn't realize the lack of talent until this past off-season when guys like McFadden and Ant. Smith weren't able to yet beat out the incumbents.  

The Steelers probably weren't as good as their 10-6 record, AFCN champ status this year.  

Ben improved, Tomlin showed some good with the bad, and Holmes stepped up big time.  

The defense took giant leaps backwards, STs still sucks, and OL is a mess.  

That's where we are.
I'll be honest: I have no idea what the STs fix is.  But the fact that other teams don't get fucked over with the regularity that we do means the solution is out there.  We just need to find it.  

I'm not as yet thrilled with Timmons, but then again, how can you say he was the wrong pick?  At least until we've seen him in meaningful play.  It's easy to point to guys getting meaningful playing time their rookie season, and say we could have had that.  As noted before, cycling into this D requires some study time (cf. Polamalu).  I think Timmons is a better fit inside than out, but we'll see.  (Maybe that's good: much of what went wrong in December was, IMO, attributable to pisspoor ILB play.)  Please remember that Timmons is very, very young, second youngest on the team, probably 2-3 years younger than most rooks, and he had the usual R1 rook setbacks.  Give him a year, please.

The elephant in the room isn't DE, it's both lines.  When Smith was healthy, the DL was still a top unit.  Keisel vs. Kimo was worse versus the run, better vs. the pass; Snack and Smith are still top players.  But depth is clearly an issue, and the 40 looks have been less effective this year.  These guys are hitting their 30s, so age and depth are an issue.  But I think one solid DE and one DT will suffice, along with some OL re-stocking.  FS will be OK if Clark comes back healthy, and if Smith pulls his head out of his ass and learns somethig.  I still think Smith can be a heck of a player if coached up, but he clearly regressed.  Then again, so did several other recent DBs, including Ike, McFadden, and obviously Coke.  It may be a natural cycle.

I thought Mahan might be solid if unspectacular, but was clearly wrong.  IMO he's a backup OG/OC or even a guy Tomlin cuts to make a point.  We can take that cap hit, no prob.

Quote
I  don't believe I'm being unrealistically negative. I think this team lacks talent beyond Roethlisberger, Holmes, Parker, and Miller on offense, and Hampton and possibly Woodley on defense. I don't think that is corrected with one off-season.

Well, we disagree then.  I think the star power of this team is better than probably 75% of the league, and its depth ain't so bad either, with notable exceptions.  What team is stocked 53 deep with A-list guys?  You don't think Hines Ward is still a top player?  You don't think Aaron Smith is?   You write off Townshend and Taylor?  I can't agree.  I even think Nate Washington has shown better than most #3 WRs league-wide.

I do think we can and will improve.  But feel free to be pessimistic.  I'm not being rosy for the sake of it.  We're diverging here, and that's fine.
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:36 »

Im just really cant see us not winning the divison.. I no we do play a crazy schedule but every1 in our divison plays the AFC south n the NFC east...Even at 9-7 or 10-6 if we own our division games then the title should b in the bad.

No1 in the AFC North  scares me
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 16:47 »

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Finny, I'll play Ol' Scratch to your Dan'l Webster on the 3:00 to go playcalling.  With Jax having 3 TO's in hand, running the clock was not the prime directive, the PS absolutely needed to get two first downs:

Jax pretty much stayed in Cover 2 all night.  Their only real defensive wrinkle was a continuous rotation of Front 7 personnel.

1D-10, Najeh over RG for 5.  I was fine with that.  Even if he only got 3 yards, it left a manageable down-and-distance and has Jax thinking run.

2D-5, run bunched trips right, Ben behind center, rolling pocket right.  That play is designed to beat a Cover 2, and the Jags had problems with that formation all night.  Ben can throw, run, or if the play breaks down, he's outta the pocket and can throw it OOB.  My opinion is that the clock is not a factor yet.

3D-5, let's assume a Matt Spaeth drop on D2.  Shotgun, start out trips right as in D2, motion Hines or Holmes left.  Slant pass to Holmes, or if the LB is reading the Holmes route, have Hines sit down for five on the opposite side of the LB.

What I didn't like about the BBR draw is that it went to our weakness at LT and there wasn't a real pass option in there.

I had a long post over at BSG with misgivings about the game and the PS.  Like most issues, there is good and bad.  Arians had a great game plan for passing the ball.  He was able to devise a scheme to beat the Jax defense, even with BBR's occasional gaffes and a patchwork line.  It's just when you get to specific game situations that Arians goes brain dead.  The PSO got away from offense in general in Q2.  All those fade patterns at the goal line.  Don't know if it's a lack of focus, but it ends up Ray Handley bad.  It's like his playcalling in the 2002 Browns game.  Wonderful offensive effort until the last couple series, capped by an inexplicable long out pattern call to Northcutt on 3rd down with the Steelers out of timeouts.  Stategic horror show that cost the Browns the game.  

FWIW, I think Arians is a wonderful WR coach and is miles ahead of a lot of guys in designing a passing game plan.  I would put value his pregame input.  It's just that he's not the complete package as OC.
In all honesty, I didn't like that series at all, either.  And good points made on Arians going "brain dead," although I still think the 2002 game was more a failure of Bitch Davis than of Arians.  I'm not saying there is nothing to criticize with Arians, but I am saying that I'd like to see Tomlin and Arians sit down and assess what didn't work and correct it.  My criticisms, were I Tomlin, would be:

1. RZ efficacy.  Came away with far too few 6s after successful drives.  We need to really evaluate the plays we use here.  They need to be lightning fast to catch Ds before they can react.  Which brings us to...

2. Cutesy BS plays.  Anything that takes too long to develop, and has too many lines squiggled over the chalkboard, is cutesy BS.  Hand off to FWP, who then has a tea party with Ward, the two of them pick posies as the OL renders songs from A Chorus Line...  Fucking just toss a quick fucking slant in front of the DBs, motherfucker.

3. Not exploiting weakness.  This seems to be a recurrent theme with PS coaches since, well, forever.  Why not run on bad run defenses?  Pass on bad pass defenses?  Take advantage of third stringers, rookies, cripples, and gimps?  

4. Find some way to assert the run more consistently, whether or not the OL is fixed.  We'd damned well better fix the OL, but I did get sick of seeing FWP and ND getting snagged for losses before plays could even take off.  Do we need to bull it up the middle to prove something, if we can use mobility and get the ball outside?  

5.  Fix the fucking screen.  It works once per game, and the rest of the time we get schooled.

Anything else?  Let's fix it, and move on.
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 17:12 »

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But the fact that other teams don't get fucked over with the regularity that we do means the solution is out there. We just need to find it.

My counter to that is that while this may be true, we're in something around Year 6 of trying to find the solution.  It's been better, it's been worse during the past six years, but I would not say we've found a solution during that time.  

Other than swapping coaches or rumaging the bargain bin for a STs ace, I'm not sure what else can be done.  Tomlin made STs a point of emphasis this year.  Probably moreso than at any time during Cowher's tenure; extensive time during camp devoted to STs, new coaches, and new personnel.  

It failed many times this year.  

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I'm not as yet thrilled with Timmons, but then again, how can you say he was the wrong pick? At least until we've seen him in meaningful play.

I'm concerned about ever getting to the point Timmons playing a meaningful down.  

Plenty of projects to be had in later rounds.  It appears to me that Woodley has surpassed Timmons on the depth chart.  Woodley, despite injury, had quite a bit of meaningful playing time in 2007-08.

Maybe the FO has changed their minds and believes Timmons to be best suited at ILB, creating an apples to oranges scenario for Woodley and Timmons.  I can only hope so.

Timmons isn't fast or big enough to play OLB in a 34.  That's the bottom line for my opinion.  

I feel uncomfortable with the pick due to the fact the Steelers knew their two starting guards were up for new contracts in 2008 and didn't plan accordingly.  They extended Simmons but gave themselves little alternative.  I think the Simmons deal was a bad one and believe selecting a guard like Ben Grubbs (and then a OLB like Woodley) would have put the Steelers into a better position in 2008 when Faneca/Simmons and Haggans were gone.  

The foresight is what bothers me.  Timmons may become the next Larry Foote (and that's no ringing endorsement) but it'll come at an expense to the offense next year.  

Maybe there is always an expense to some other area of the team.  

Right now, it looks to me as though we drafted one OLB last year.  

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The elephant in the room isn't DE, it's both lines

In "both lines," are you saying DL and OL?

If so, I don't think the OL is an unnoticed elephant in the room.  I thought that was one of the premises of this thread....we knew OL would be a problem heading into the season.  

I'd prefer we plan for the future better.  

Neither Keisel nor Aaron Smith are young guys.  Why wait until something breaks, as it did this year?  I know you're not a huge fan of Kirschke and I can't believe you were happy with Eason's play.  

I'm not sure the prudent draft has us with two OL on Day One.

But I think Ron Cook describes what many Steelers fans want..."It's pretty obvious how the first three rounds should go for the Steelers: Offensive lineman, offensive lineman, offensive lineman."

I hope he's kidding, even if it's just two OL, because while it may improve the OL, it will undoubtedly hinder other areas of the team.  

And with my view of the talent on this team, the Steelers can't afford that type of hinderance.  

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You don't think Hines Ward is still a top player? You don't think Aaron Smith is? You write off Townshend and Taylor? I can't agree. I even think Nate Washington has shown better than most #3 WRs league-wide.

To respond to the specific players, I left Ward out for sure.  

I have no idea how Aaron Smith will return.  I have a difficult time believing that losing DE caused the defense to go to shit but maybe it was the cause.  If so, I feel more confident in my assessment of the remaining talent on defense.

I don't have the same opinion of Ike and Deshea that you do.  

Definitely don't share the same opinion for Nate Washington.  

It's not about having 53 A-list players, it's about having talented starters.  There are some but IMO, there are more of the Larry Footes and Kendall Simmons than the Ben Roethlisbergers and Casey Hamptons.

You and I share many of the same ideas re: what we expected coming into the season, and how, now that it's over, the deficiencies aren't that surprising.  

I agree with jcharding that it won't be 2008 that reaps the benefits of a good draft or FA signing session.  Maybe 2009.  

I am optimistic that we have a playmaker in Woodley at LB.  I really think we were playing with "one arm" at OLB this year with Hags opposite James Harrison.  

I pray for a speedy recovery for Ryan Clark 'cause Ant. Smith might be a reasonable #4 safety but he's not the future FS.  

Glad to hear you're optimistic 'cause I need to hear that side.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2008 at 17:30 by SCacalaki » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 17:54 »

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I'm not as yet thrilled with Timmons, but then again, how can you say he was the wrong pick? At least until we've seen him in meaningful play.

I'm concerned about ever getting to the point Timmons playing a meaningful down.  

Plenty of projects to be had in later rounds.  It appears to me that Woodley has surpassed Timmons on the depth chart.  Woodley, despite injury, had quite a bit of meaningful playing time in 2007-08.
...
Timmons isn't fast or big enough to play OLB in a 34.  That's the bottom line for my opinion.  

I feel uncomfortable with the pick due to the fact the Steelers knew their two starting guards were up for new contracts in 2008 and didn't plan accordingly.
Right now, it looks to me as though we drafted one OLB last year.  
 
Bingo!

This was my frustration, oh, five milliseconds after we picked Timmons. Complete reach for need at a single position, as opposed to considering a better player at OL (which also screamed of need, BTW).

Best part of that debacle is, now, we almost have to do the SAME THING this year at OL, neglecting value at DL, because our OL is so fucking screwed.

It's a shitty domino effect.

Well, at least we found Woodley.

 
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 06, 2008 at 19:12 »

Ditto to Lambert's ditto.  Not only is Timmons more suited to ILB, the Steelers probably should deal with both Farrior and his contract as well.  $4.7MM for an ILB that would have a problem covering Grady Jackson in pass coverage is something that needs to be addressed.  I like Farrior, especially at the POA, but he got worn down toward the end.

Don't want to copy all things Patriot, but they have extended the effectiveness of their older LB's by rotating them heavily.  Wouldn't mind seeing the PSD do that with Timmons/Foote/Farrior and Haggans/Harrison/Woodley (if Haggans returns) down the road.  The only reason they didn't do that more with Woodley this year is injury.

Also, responding to SC's post about special (ed) teams, I thought that Kevin Spencer did a decent job in his time here.  There were a couple of misguided ideas, like Colclough on punt returns, but the PS were invariably better at the end of the season on ST's then at the start.  And he took the really bad ST units of 2001 and made them a little better each year through 2005.  I was a little disappointed to see Spencer go, moreso as this season progressed.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2008 at 19:26 by padgfrombf » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 10:00 »

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Other than swapping coaches or rumaging the bargain bin for a STs ace, I'm not sure what else can be done.

I saw Rhonde Barber on coverage teams for TB yesterday.  I know we've done SOME of this, but I say put any starter in the game that you have to put in there to stop the bleeding, because it has absolutely killed us for years.

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2. Cutesy BS plays. Anything that takes too long to develop, and has too many lines squiggled over the chalkboard, is cutesy BS. Hand off to FWP, who then has a tea party with Ward, the two of them pick posies as the OL renders songs from A Chorus Line... Fucking just toss a quick fucking slant in front of the DBs, motherfucker.

Aside from this being a hilarious description, it's also pretty accurate.  Just run the ball, throw the ball.  Especially the simple stuff, the short passes.

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5. Fix the fucking screen. It works once per game, and the rest of the time we get schooled.


I'm not even sure it works once a game.  We look like we have absolutely no idea how to execute a screen.  I place part of this on the oline coaching, because our guys do not release their man on time and are not in good position when the throw is made.  Neither are the backs.  As lucky as it was, both Davis and Faneca were out of position on the intercepted screen Sat. night.

Either practice them until you can execute them or quit trying to execute them.

Overall, after some time to think it over, I'd say that I'm leaning more towards Finny than I am towards the other perspectives.  I don't know that we're a true SB contender, but I don't think we're 6-10, either.

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I hope he's kidding, even if it's just two OL, because while it may improve the OL, it will undoubtedly hinder other areas of the team.

And with my view of the talent on this team, the Steelers can't afford that type of hinderance.

But I believe that an improved offensive line elevates every other area of the team.  Better oline play means better running game=better ball control=less time for the defense to be on the field.  Better oline play=less pressure on Ben=fewer turnovers=much less pressure on the defense and a healthy franchise QB.  Better oline play=better red zone efficiency=bigger leads=other teams being 1-dimensional=better for our defense.

At one time, I believed that just about anyone could get big and strong and play oline in the NFL.  I have really changed my perspective on that.  Oline, IMO, is the unsung heart and soul of a football team, and having a good one is essential not only to the success of the offense, but to the success of everyone.  I believe we fix that first before we worry about anything else.


 
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 11:45 »

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I saw Rhonde Barber on coverage teams for TB yesterday. I know we've done SOME of this, but I say put any starter in the game that you have to put in there to stop the bleeding, because it has absolutely killed us for years.

I saw DJF mention at MGP that James Harrison was on STs.  

I know I've seen Ike and Heath Miller on STs as well.  So that's at least three starters.  

Others I know where on STs but not starters...Clint Kriewaldt, Marquis Cooper, Anthony Madison, Arnold Harrison, and 'Dre Frazier.  Greg Warren if it was a punt.  Either Reed or Sep, depending on KR/PR.  

I'm not arguing whether it needs to be fixed but rather the how's of the fix.  

Tomlin must do more to fix the situation but I don't contest that he didn't try, from camp through most of the season.  

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But I believe that an improved offensive line elevates every other area of the team. Better oline play means better running game=better ball control=less time for the defense to be on the field. Better oline play=less pressure on Ben=fewer turnovers=much less pressure on the defense and a healthy franchise QB. Better oline play=better red zone efficiency=bigger leads=other teams being 1-dimensional=better for our defense.

That's a good point, though it's a mighty big equation.  

I'd lean towards accepting that premise if we're in-season, where personnel adjustments are more difficult to make.  

Being that we're in the off-season, I'd like to figure out the fix for the defense, as oppossed to a cover up.  

You can't get everything on Day One of the draft.  While OL needs help, I'd prefer not to go overboard in the short term at the expense of the long term.  IMO, it's why we're in the OL situation we're in.
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 11:53 »

Watching Ike on the 96 yard kickoff return shows why he shouldn't be on it.
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 11:57 »

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That's a good point, though it's a mighty big equation.

Yeah, and maybe a bit of a stretch that just comes from my belief that Oline and QB are the biggest keys to winning.  I would cite Steeler teams of the past that had stellar lines and won, even with mediocre QBs and glaring weaknesses in other areas.

I would also cite this year's Browns.  Derek Anderson really did not have a great year, statistically.  But that line improved tremendously this season and it almost got them to the playoffs, in spite of a weak defense.  It's just a personal belief about the importance of the down guys on offense.
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 18:06 »

I agree in principle with the philosophy that a team shouldn't reach for need in the draft, but, the offensive line is SO bad that I feel we have to focus on it with a plurality of our top 4 picks.

We have to protect Ben, he's too important to the team.
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 18:21 »

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I agree in principle with the philosophy that a team shouldn't reach for need in the draft, but, the offensive line is SO bad that I feel we have to focus on it with a plurality of our top 4 picks.

We have to protect Ben, he's too important to the team.
+1

Two very good points.
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« Reply #30 on: Jan 07, 2008 at 18:29 »

IMO, and I guess we're drafting what, 23rd?  24th?  We'll have a prime shot at a good LT.  Long and Baker are draftniks' picks for the top OTs, which is fine.  I like the next 3 better anyway: Clady, Williams, and Otah.  I don't know that you get too many R1s with 5 or 6 OTs taken, so a good shot at protecting the blindside without a reach.

In fact, we might be able to do some trade-downs for more picks, go BAA among some targets, and come out sweet in the draft.  I'd go with Scheuning if I could, and some small school DE/DT types, maybe throw in the UGA center... Ahhh, but I've said it all before.  Build from the trenches.  We've neglected that too much lately.  Nothing against our recent top picks, but the lines are suffering.
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« Reply #31 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 08:34 »

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I agree in principle with the philosophy that a team shouldn't reach for need in the draft, but, the offensive line is SO bad that I feel we have to focus on it with a plurality of our top 4 picks.

We have to protect Ben, he's too important to the team.
I agree 100%.  I would 110% but that is statistically impossible.

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« Reply #32 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 09:58 »

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I don't know that you get too many R1s with 5 or 6 OTs taken, so a good shot at protecting the blindside without a reach.

In fact, we might be able to do some trade-downs for more picks, go BAA among some targets, and come out sweet in the draft.
I'm too lazy to check, but I wouldn't be shocked if we are picking the bottom barrel of the top-flight OT prospects at 23.  There is a dearth of OL talent right now, which is why Ellen will be very, very wealthy soon. I hope that isn't the case, but...

For that reason, I don't think trading down (in the first, anyway) is an option.

The time to trade down was LAST year, when we could have traded with someone and moved down and taken Grubs or even maybe Beason...and got, what, another 2nd? Or 3rd? And used that pick for either an OL or LB (whichever we didn't find in the trade-down).  But don't get me started....
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« Reply #33 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 11:34 »

Number of R1 (and R2) OTs taken

2007 - 3 (1)
2006 - 1 (4)
2005 - 2 (3)
2004 - 3 (1)
2003 - 3 (1)
2002 - 4 (3)
2001 - 2 (2)
2000 - 3 (4)
1999 - 4 (2)
1998 - 3 (2)

That's a ten-year scope.  Max R1 + R2 total = 7 (2000, 2002).  Max R1 = 4 (1999).  Min R1 = 1 (2006).  Average R1 = 2.8; average R2 = 2.3.  

For the sake of argument, let's say an average year has 3 first rounders and 2 seconds; sounds about right.  But let's say this year is more top-heavy.  I'll use the NFL Draft Scout rankings and projections by round for this exercise.

Rank - Name - School - Projected Round

1. Jake Long, Michigan - R1
2. Ryan Clady, Boise St. - R1
3. Jeff Otah, Pitt - R1
4. Chris Williams, Vanderbilt - R1
5. Sam Baker, USC - R1-2
6. Gosder Cherilus, Boston College - R2
7. Carl Nicks, Nebraska - R2
8. Anthony Collins, Kansas - R2-3

Notes:  Most draft sites have Long and Baker followed by Clady.  I'm not big on Baker, and this is the first ranking that I've seen that hews pretty close to my own top 6, at least.  Not as famuiliar with Nicks and Collins.  I've pushed for Williams or Otah, which would seem to fall close to pick 24 or whatever we have.

That's 8, with the 10-year high for 1st rounders at 4 (Williams, at worst), and high for first two rounds at 7 (Nicks).  Even going 5 R1 nets you Baker at the bottom.  Looking by team:

Miami - Needs help everywhere.  Will Parcells go for Long at 1.1?  My guess is no; there are better players out there, maybe Glenn Dorsey or Chris Long.
Rams - Very good chance of replacing Pace with Long.
Raiders - Maybe, but gunshy post-Gallery?
Falcons - Maybe, but QB is a bit of an issue.
Chiefs - Another great line in decline, bet they take Clady.
Jets - Just drafted Brick not so long ago.
*Pats - More likely to go LB.
Ravens - Ogden may be gone, but they like Gaither.
Bengals - Not a top need with Anderson and Andrews.
Saints - Not a need.
Bills - Ditto.
Broncos - Maybe.  But LB might be more of a need, and might go OT via FA?
Panthers - Gross and Wharton are FAs.  Otah? Well, this is a team in dire need of a QB, too.
Bears - I'm thinking QB.  Call me crazy.
Lions - Gotta go WR!  Could go OT, since Goerge Foster fucked up in Denver and here, too.  Otah?
Cards - Won't need another R1 OT.
Vikes - Line looks good to me.
Texans - Still need a LT, might pick Williams.
Eagles - When healthy, a solid line.
Bucs - Trouble at LT, could take Baker.
Skins - Not a need.
Titans - Good line.
Steelers - ?

Kinda guessing some of that order...  NFL Draft Countown has 5 going (Long, Clady, Otah, Baker, Cherilus).  The list above has 6 before us at 24.  Either would set a 10-year precedent.

IMO, the most likely to fall to us are 4, Williams (my pick), and 5, Baker.  I'd be reluctant to take Cherilus R1, as he looks iffy at LT.  Rather go DL if that happens, take a shot on one of the R2 guys.
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« Reply #34 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 11:39 »

Did Michael Oher say he was staying in school?  If he declares, one more R1er...
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« Reply #35 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 12:38 »

I'm really, REALLY hoping that Williams will be around when we draft.
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« Reply #36 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 12:51 »

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I'm really, REALLY hoping that Williams will be around when we draft.
You seen him much, Preach?  I've only seen a little, but liked him and love his stats -- 2 sacks allowed in 2 years vs. SEC LOC?  Pretty nice.

I've seen him being mocked anywhere from mid-R1 to early R2.
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« Reply #37 on: Jan 08, 2008 at 14:02 »

Tomlin, no.  **** LeBeau, no.  Arians, you bet your fucking ass I do.
 
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