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Author Topic: Colbert's comments on the OL  (Read 2543 times)
steelers4lyfe333
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 14:50 »

I say give it another year and Timmons will take over for Farrior when he moves on...

Slid Foote over to Farriors spot and let Timmons settle in the mack spot...

Foote is an interesting player.. doesn't cover or blitz amazing but he's always around the ball...n gets into the back field..Our LB's will be fine
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aj_law
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 16:04 »

Regarding the LBs, as I briefly mentioned on another thread, I think the Wood/Harrison edge combo will be damn good for the next few.  Both guys have the ability to really fuck with O-lines.  Harrison was sick this year with a so-so Hags opposite him.  Imagine how much better he'll be next year when the opposition has to account for a monster on the other side too.

Hopefully Timmons surprises in the middle because beyond him, there really isn't much to get excited about on the depth chart there.  And, with Farrior entering his final year and Foote being a...meh, ILB, folowing closely behind with one more year, this part of the front seven looks awfully soft.  Maybe, just maybe they can find a Day Two needle in a haystack that can come in and shake things up a bit.  If not, they're going to have to make a big move there soon.  Looks like a Day One '09 target.

One other point, well, a couple, actually.  I do not feel comfortable with going into next season and essentially handing Stapleton the OC job.  If his biggest competition there is going to be Mahan, they're pretty much forking it over on a silver platter.  I think that OC is a pick that needs to be made somewhere in the first three, maybe four, rounds.  I agree with Funguswack that OG is OK in some form or another.  OT and C are different stories that need good talent now.

Speaking of Mahan, initially I said that I thought he was going to compete with Simmons, Colon and Kemo for the 2 OG spots.  Now, I'm not so sure.

If I had to rank those four guys, it would probably look like this:

Simmons >> Kemo > Colon > Mahan

Maybe even:

Simmons >> Kemo > Colon >> Mahan

Considering the very real likelihood that he'll be a backup next season, I don't see the necessity in retaining Chucky Okobi v2.0.  The dude will be pocketing on average, a shade over 3 million per; too much for a backup.  If they draft two linemen on Day One, I think he's a post 6/1 cut.  This move, along with axing Wilson, would save almost 4 million in cap space.  For the record, giving Tuman the boot would save almost a million and a half too.  C-U-N...wait a sec, C-U-T.

They must either (1) restructure Smith, or (2) resign Starks and cut Smith.  If I had to guess, I'd say that they go with option (1).  Red walks, peace, Homey.  Mahan's out.  Draft OT & OC.

Starting OL next year:

LT: Smith/(Rookie) ~ Rookie pushes Smith to RT?
LG: Simmons
C: (Rookie)/Stapleton ~ Rookie pushes Stapleton to the bench?
RG: Kemo ~ Still think Colon and Kemo should duke it out for this, but OK.
RT: Colon/Essex/(Rookie) ~ As good as Essex looked, I'd almost be willing to just hand this job to Smith and let Essex and the Rook battle for the LT spot.
« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2008 at 16:06 by aj_law » Logged

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LambertsFrontTeeth
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 17:44 »

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I do not feel comfortable with going into next season and essentially handing Stapleton the OC job.  If his biggest competition there is going to be Mahan, they're pretty much forking it over on a silver platter.  I think that OC is a pick that needs to be made somewhere in the first three, maybe four, rounds.  I agree with Funguswack that OG is OK in some form or another.  OT and C are different stories that need good talent now.

...

Speaking of Mahan, initially I said that I thought he was going to compete with Simmons, Colon and Kemo for the 2 OG spots.  Now, I'm not so sure.

 
I agree with the concern about OC. we need to bring in new blood there. However, my concern is that I haven't heard impressive things about OC talent in the draft  the way that we have heard the past few years. Would we be better off with another FA? In terms of a pure C, not some projected G to change (a la Mahan)?

I'm actually of the opinion that we need both G and T in this draft. As has been pointed out, maybe we will all be congratulating Colbert in two years for having the wisdom to take two LB's to cement needs in 2007  (if Timmons works out).
We might be able to congratulate him to do the same thing at OL in 2008.

 If legitimate value is there, I'd love to see (as previously stated) an entire side of a line drafted this year, perhaps bookending a DL.  Or, if value dictates, I'd also support two picks at Tackle -- supposedly, one of the better T drafts in recent years.

Bringing in talent ANYWHERE on the line, to me, gives us much more flexibility than trying to catch lightning in a bottle and moving these stiffs around.

I think it's much, much too risky to say, "Well, move Colon to G, Starks to LT, Smith to RT, bla bla bla." I understand the logic -- or should I say desperation -- in such a move. But it's simply not reasonable to assume that all of these guys would learn new spots and suddenly become less limited.  And I've grown tired of experimentation there. And for fuck's sake, Mahan has GOT to go.

Fuck it, let's just blow it up and build a  new line. Improve in 2008, cement for the future in 2009.
 
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 18:00 »

Velasco, UGA OC.  Mentioned as a late rounder.  Not a ZBS fit, hence perfect for the Stillers.  Basically: an immovable object.

Scheuning, Ore St. OG.  Reminded me a helluva lot of Faneca.  Get those two, your IOL is suddenly solid.

Take your pick: Williams or Baker at LT, R1.  Suddenly, a fucking solid line appears, perhaps too much depth at OG.  

LT: Baker/Williams, M. Smith
LG: Scheuning, Simmons
C: Velasco, Stapleton
RG: Colon, Kemo
RT: M. Smith, Capizzi

That's 10 OL.  Mahan, fuck yasself.  QE motherfucking D.  Three picks, desperately needed, a line that vaults us to the top.
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LambertsFrontTeeth
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 18:05 »

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Velasco, UGA OC.  Mentioned as a late rounder.  Not a ZBS fit, hence perfect for the Stillers.  Basically: an immovable object.

Scheuning, Ore St. OG.  Reminded me a helluva lot of Faneca.  Get those two, your IOL is suddenly solid.

Take your pick: Williams or Baker at LT, R1.  Suddenly, a fucking solid line appears, perhaps too much depth at OG.  

LT: Baker/Williams, M. Smith
LG: Scheuning, Simmons
C: Velasco, Stapleton
RG: Colon, Kemo
RT: M. Smith, Capizzi

That's 10 OL.  Mahan, fuck yasself.  QE motherfucking D.  Three picks, desperately needed, a line that vaults us to the top.
Yes, yes yes.

Oh, and Finny, perhaps we could sign your new avatar to special teams?

That guy would be deadly.
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"Dreith said I hit Sipe too hard. I hit him as hard as I could. Brian has a chance to go out of bounds and he decides not to. He knows I'm going to hit him. And I do. History."
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 18:11 »

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Quote
Velasco, UGA OC.  Mentioned as a late rounder.  Not a ZBS fit, hence perfect for the Stillers.  Basically: an immovable object.

Scheuning, Ore St. OG.  Reminded me a helluva lot of Faneca.  Get those two, your IOL is suddenly solid.

Take your pick: Williams or Baker at LT, R1.  Suddenly, a fucking solid line appears, perhaps too much depth at OG. 

LT: Baker/Williams, M. Smith
LG: Scheuning, Simmons
C: Velasco, Stapleton
RG: Colon, Kemo
RT: M. Smith, Capizzi

That's 10 OL.  Mahan, fuck yasself.  QE motherfucking D.  Three picks, desperately needed, a line that vaults us to the top.
Yes, yes yes.

Oh, and Finny, perhaps we could sign your new avatar to special teams?

That guy would be deadly.
Hold still.

[*THWUuMMMMPFHHH*]
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steelerfaninCO
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 18:25 »

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 Mahan, fuck yasself.
I think we need a FUCK YOU SEAN MAHAN!!!! thread. Hasn't been enough of that around lately...
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SCacalaki
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 19:53 »

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I'll take the minority position again (Arians, Spaeth), but on what are we judging Timmons? How exactly is he a whiff?

I'm not sure why you label yourself as the minority position finny.  I certainly doubt that camp exists and it looks like the responses after your's would suggest there's a vocal backing of your point.

Thought I explained the "whiff" comment in my previous post...absolutely believe it was a whiff based on position.  I believe the Steelers put most of their eggs in one basket for Day One.  As a result, we're stuck talking about picking at least two OL between Rds. 1-3 this year (that's the majority projection around here), which means we probably fall deficient in some other area.

The reason it's easy to let Clark Haggans walk is Lamar Woodley.  That isn't/wasn't so for Faneca or Simmons.  

The reason we had to extend either Faneca or Simmons was there was no good backup plan in place.  No way would the Steelers have been successful in 2008 with Kemo and Colon (or Mahan).  Personally, I don't know how someone would feel good about either of those guys as starting guards.  

Kemo's biggest contribution came a few weeks ago as a FB (I kid, sort of).  There has been talk on this board about moving Kemo to NT 'cause he isn't smart enough to hack it at guard.  I don't know whether Kemo would do well as a starter, but in 3+ years, Kemo has received sparse playing time, despite poor play by Simmons in 2007.  

If I can't knock Timmons 'cause he hasn't done anything yet, how can Stapleton be penciled in as the OC for 2008, when he's yet to do anything?  

If the team is going to make a big investment in Roethlisberger, I'd like him to be well protected.  We all would.  I believe the Steelers should have had better foresight for 2008 and the OL.  They didn't and we are where we are.  

Re: Stapleton beating Okobi out of camp, remember, Okobi ran a higher pricetag than Stapleton and Okobi wasn't happy with Mahan's arrival, expecting to be handed the starting OC job.  So I'm not sure the decision to retain Stapleton was based entirely on his preseason play and potential.  

Quote
Yes, it would have been nice to have hit on an Olineman that could started right away,

Well, that's kinda my point....the OL drafted last April wouldn't have had to start in 2007, but would have had a year of prep work for 2008 when one or both starting guards had left.  

Had a guy like Grubbs been selected instead of Timmons (or to avoid taking a direct shot at Timmons, had an OG been taken as opposed to an OLB, err, ILB) he could have learned through 2007 behind our two long-time starting guards and moved into one of the available positions in 2008.  Moving forward, the Steelers would have a 2nd year, 1st round guard available for 2008.  

As things stand, Timmons will fight with Foote (I believe Tomlin said that) for the mack ILB position.  Foote is our youngest LB, and while not great, probably will be a few more years away from great decline than Farrior or Harrison.

Even if one thinks Timmons will be a good ILB, as things stand, and assuming Haggans leaves, we still have depth issues at OLB...a year after drafting "two" OLB prospects.  

To me, it's frustrating.  I never liked the Timmons pick, neither before the draft nor at any point afterwards.  I think the Steelers didn't set themselves up well so far as leveraging themselves for negotations with Faneca/Simmons or for the 2008 OL.  Gosh, three OL (then starters) up for new contracts after the 2007 season.  

And not that a rookie OL can't start and make an impact immediately (Joe Thomas and Ben Grubbs did) or that a 1st round OL will make a great impact over the long haul (IMO, Simmons) but who thought FS would go to the shitter so fast?  The DL needs an infusion of youth (as Tomlin put it).  Drafting for the same postiion in the 1st and 2nd rounds seems likely to cause a similar reaction in the following year's draft, pushing other positions to the "dire needs" status.  Seems like it can have a domino effect from draft to draft.  

I don't begrudge anyone for liking Timmons or making the best of the pick.  Certainly, I'd prefer to a 1st rounder to panout one way or the other, regardless of my opinoin.  Timmons' best chance for success in a 34 is inside.  But I think most fans knew last April that a 234lb LB doesn't fit at OLB in a 34.  Tomlin appears to have realized the same.

What's done is done and it's time to move on with what we have, I guess.

Quote
Simmons >> Kemo > Colon > Mahan

That's downright frightening.
« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2008 at 20:25 by SCacalaki » Logged

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Preacherman0
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 16, 2008 at 19:58 »

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Maybe it's best to lose Starks and not worry about over-paying, and playing him out of position. We get a 2009 comp, and can pick up a late draft pick to play RT. Maybe Capizzi even makes it at RT. I just don't want to over-pay and under-draft for critical positions (LT).

That's really the deal, isn't it?  I like Starks, but I think he may have that tendency to get "fat and happy" when he's a starter.  Starks in 04 and 07 was very different than the Starks of 05/06.  Was he better because he was pushed into proving himself?  Or was he better because he's better suited to play LT?  No way you can tell--keep or release, it's a guessing game.  I tend to think he'd make a good if not great LT, but how much cap room are we willing to tie up for "good" on Ben's blind side?

Timmons?  Who knows?  I never liked the pick, but I had mixed feelings about SanAntonio in year 1.  One thing I'd say about Larry Foote--I like him, but he's as good as he's ever going to be, IMO.  He's good, scrappy, plays hard, but he's hit the ceiling of his potential.  How long to you hang in with him?  

Too many questions, not many answers this offseason.  When I look at what this team is facing, I couldn't imagine being a GM/personnel guy and trying to make decisions.  Are we 10-6 on the way up?  Or are we 10-6 barely hanging on?  I think that BR really throws off the curve for finding out how good you are because he compensates for weaknesses at other positions.

So who the heck knows?
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aj_law
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 17, 2008 at 10:41 »

Kind of building on what I said earlier regarding cutting Mahan and focusing on improving OT and OC...

The more I think about it, the more I believe that a good FA move might be to get a quality OC in FA.

Yeah, they can take a shot that they'll snag a good one in R3 or R4 of the draft, but with Stapleton being the only other viable OC on the roster, that's a scary proposition going into the '08 season.  They need a quality guy putting the ball in #7's hands.  And please, let's not even go with the "so and so can/will move over to center this year" stuff.  Considering the current linemen on the roster, nobody is capable.  If they were, they would've made that move sometime during the '07 season.

With that said, I'd be in favor of seeing what Alex Stepanovich's (Bengals) price tag would be.  I don't really know what the going rate is for a good center, but if it's a little more than what Mahan signed for, I'd be perfectly cool with that.  One thing's for sure, a FA OC is definitely cheaper than a FA OT.  And, as bad as the Bengal line is/was, it's not because of their OC.  Their problem was more on the edges.

Cut Mahan post 6/1 and save about a million and a half in cap space.

Sign Stepanovich to a 4 or 5 year deal (he's only 26).

Keep the draft priorities the same.

O-line/D-line with a wildcard of WR, S, RB, ILB as a third option.

Same proposed lineup I mentioned earlier only with Stepanovich as the starting OC.
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