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Preacherman0
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« on: Jun 06, 2008 at 17:04 »

Okay, so, here's the current car situation at our house:

96 Cherokee - Gas guzzler, 145k

00 Expedition - Gas guzzler, 120k

84 GMC Sierra - Gas HAWG, environmental hazard, unknown mileage, not the kind of thing you want to drive every day (especially w/a 30 min. commute).

88 Honda Motorcycle - 50 mpg - yes, that's 50! - not much good in winter.

The kicker is, NO car payments.  

Now, I run across a 2006 Nissan Sentra with 11k miles for $9200.  Perfect run-around car, 30-35 mpg.  

But, do I want to add a car payment?  Up the insurance?  I'm not sure that I'll save enough in gas to make it affordable.  

Any thoughts?
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vinman3
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 06, 2008 at 18:24 »

I am trying to live by the teachings of Dave Ramsey and being debt free. Though the past few months have made it difficult, with the house and other things. He would say, sell your gas guzzlers, and buy the Sentra with cash. Though buying a car with cash can be difficult if you haven't been preparing for it. That sounds like a great buy too Preach, hope it works out for you.
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 06, 2008 at 19:32 »

It all depends on what you need.  Maybe there's a reason you need three gas hogs.  My thinking is that at least one car should be gas efficient, never more clearly than in $4 a gallon days, sure to be higher soon.  You have three trucks and a cycle, which I'm not sure why you need three trucks.

We've recently come to the end of a car cycle.  Our theory is, we don't care much about cars beyond their ability to get us here to there in some decent way.  Don't care about gearhead shit like major HP, or supercool styling, etc.  Just be reliable and as cost-effective as possible.  So, Mrs. had a 90 Dodge Shadow hatchback, which was good on mileage, and lasted from 1994-2007, many payment-free years.  I had a 93 Chevy Lumina from 1996-2008, less efficient mileage, a little bigger.

Last year, we got the missus a Hyundai Elantra, new rather than used, $14,400 plus taxes, tags, etc.  Not a luxury car, but a pretty zippy number with good ratings and not much more than many used cars.  High 30s highway mileage, low car payments.  I'm happy enough with the Hyundai that my purchase, likely coming very soon, will be a Hyundai Tucson, their compact SUV.  For me, the utility of being able to haul minor stuff from Lowe's/HD that would not fit in the Elantra (or Shadow or Lumina) is worth getting mid-20s in mpg.  I'm mid-dance with a dealer, and it looks like we're going to deal somewhere between $18,000 and $18,500.  The plan is to drive these vehicles for at least 10 years, since we take good care, add low miles, and want maximum zero payment years.

My advice to you is, figure out whether you need all those vehicles.  The cycle stays; it's cheap to operate.  Do you need three trucks?  Can you get by on 2?  What is market value on those vehicles?  I don't know that the Sentra offers a better long-term investment ROI than a new Hyundai, or other lower-MSRP vehicle.  Lots of makers have high-30 mpg cars, and I'd add one of those to the mix.  The value of new is not in resale, as it depreciates the second you drive it off, but in knowing what you're getting.  You control its maintenance, its history.  And those new years are the best years.  Just saying, the difference between $9200 for used and $15K for new might not be so great.

In any event, never ever buy a dealer car with a trade-in.  Lose every time.  Sell privately, and buy without dealer financing, by your own bank's car loan, or if possible using cash.  Dealers will jack your rates.  We're doing a debt consolidation loan of a bunch of shit, and the net effect is no extra monthly amount for the new Finny car; we will pay a bit longer (10 years), but as a home equity, our car loans and credit card payoff assumed by the loan will be tax deductible (interest only), as will our vacation, HDTV, and new computer.  It'll be under $600 a month for two new cars and all that, by the magic of financing.  So look into home equity loans, consider buying new, cash rather than financing or trade, and definitely get one gas miser into the mix.  Make the gas miser your MAIN runaround car (groceries, school, whatever).

Debt free is a great goal, but if you assume debt, your best bet is to get maximum return, buying new with best bang for buck.  We always try to pay down debts early, as well.  If you have any inerest in Hyundai cars, you can get some great deals on the Sonatas, $3000 off MSRP.  Know how to play the game with dealers, too.  Know invoice price, the whole game of finance managers, their dog and pony show, the back and forth many people just cannot stomach.  I mentioned dealer holdbacks to my salesman and he about flipped.  I countered at $4000 below what they first offered, and they overplayed their hand on the Tucson: they came down below the price they had just told me they would be taking a loss on, within $380 of my counter.  I walked the fuck out on them, and today they're calling me and begging.  Tomorrow, I'm actually LOWERING my offer because they went low too fast, and I think I over-offered.  Anyway, it's my same strategy as last year with the Elantra: got an internet quote from a dealer in Baltimore, got a certified check in hand, walk in and say "I wanna deal now, here's what you're working against."  

It's comical/sad how these salespeople operate, but unless you fell off the hay cart yesterday, just remember to walk out on any deal at least once.  I'm violating the "buy at the end of the month" rule, but need trumps folk wisdom.  Anyway, buying new takes some work, but you don't know what you're getting with the Sentra and its apparent low mileage.  Did it get flooded in New Orleans?  Did the person just plain beat the shit out of it for 2 years?  Etc.  That's something to consider.  One thing if you're buying a beater to beat the shit out of yourself, but as the reliable car, the gas miser, you want as close to a sure thing as possible.

Just my 2 cents.  It's funny that my old 6 cylinder Lumina had less pickup despite higher HP than the 4 cylinder Elantra.  Guess it's part body weight, part better engineering.  I really liked testing the Tucson.  No, it's not something to haul trees up the side a mountain, but it has nice responsiveness.  Pretty basic inside, like the Elantra.  I guess that's what you get with these cheaper cars.  But definitely do-able.  

I'll post updates on my search as well.  What a busy few weeks this has been.
« Last Edit: Jun 06, 2008 at 19:38 by Finnegans Wake » Logged

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Preacherman0
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 06, 2008 at 20:36 »

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I am trying to live by the teachings of Dave Ramsey and being debt free.

Dave Ramsey is good stuff, Vinman.  Hence the nature of my moral dilemna.

Quote
I'll post updates on my search as well. What a busy few weeks this has been.

The car search is a royal pain, very time-consuming.  I just know that whatever I buy, it's going to have to be with us for a while.

As for the three trucks, it's pretty simple.  The Expedition is paid for, runs well, and there is absolutely no market for it.  We bought it just before the oil binge started.  Better to keep it than sell it--the wife drives it, and she has a very short ride to her school, so it's not killing us.  If we have to make a long trip, it's good for the family.

The Jeep was given to us by the inlaws, free and clear.  The boy drives it to school, but he's also doing a lot of other stuff and running up tons of mileage.  Again, resale is zip.

The GMC--paid it off years ago and use it basically as a utility vehicle (hauling garbage, recycling, mulch, etc.).  Problem is that, if we stay as we are, eventually the boy will have to drive it to school and I'll have to drive the Jeep.

I'll drive the bike as long as I can.  Gas-saver, cheap, and again, very little resale value.    

Long and short of it is that all three are paid for, insurance is dirt cheap, no resale value in any of them.  Of the three, the GMC is least efficient but may be the most utilitarian.  

The positive to the Sentra is that it's being sold basically at trade-in value, clean title history, remaining factory warranty--about as close to new as you can get without being new.  It's nothing fancy, just basic reliable fuel-efficient eco-friendly transportation.  Just big enough that the four of us can ride in it whenever possible.

But I literally feel guilty about the idea of taking on another loan, especially since we just made our last payment on the Expedition.  My wife just wants me to make a decision, but I am smack in the middle of a moral quandry.  I love the idea of saving gas and low emissions, etc, etc...but I have a real problem with adding a payment.  Financially, it ends up pretty much as a wash--what we save in gas appears to equal what we'll spend in insurance and payments.  But MAN, it is nice to be debt free.  I'm just not sure it helps when you're dishing out huge bank just to buy gas.
 
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otismalibu
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 06, 2008 at 21:09 »

What the hell kind of preacher are you? None of our preachers even had cars. No houses either, they just slept in the basement of the rectory. Their free time was spent drinking and hiding their deviant sexual behavior.

Anyway, back to the question at hand.

Personally, I'd turn to prayer and wait for a sign from The Almighty.

 :D  
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 07, 2008 at 09:44 »

Television, Cars, I keep thinking there's some kind of music discussion going on here, but then I find out it's like, a bunch of grown-ups or something.  
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jonzr
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 07, 2008 at 14:35 »

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Television, Cars, I keep thinking there's some kind of music discussion going on here, but then I find out it's like, a bunch of grown-ups or something.
Did I mention how fun it is taking the Zeppelin to work every day?  What a ride!  Gas mileage?  Pshaw!  But these 40 mph wind gusts are a killer.

Sounds like it might be 6 of one and a half dozen of another.  The wife and I work it out so that we have only one payment at a time.  My truck will pay off next summer and her minivan will be about 10 years old then.

Good luck.  And good advice from Finny on purchasing cars.
 
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 07, 2008 at 15:10 »

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Television, Cars, I keep thinking there's some kind of music discussion going on here, but then I find out it's like, a bunch of grown-ups or something.
Otis will weigh in on the Butthole Surfers soon.

Negotiations for the new vehicle have stalled.  Went back, lowballed them, they balked and countered with an offer meant to drive me out the door: $600 higher than their previous offer.  Clearly, the strategy is to go back to their original offer, and have me jump thankfully at the chance to accept.  This has just pissed me off.  Another local dealer was even higher still, and I left after they said "we'll be losing $300 on this deal!"  Like a care salesman ever loses ANY money on ANY deal.

WTF kind of idiot do they think I am?

Time to break out the mesmerizing jacket and pictures of Newt.  

Well, next week will kinda suck on the carpooling with the wife, given my new job schedule.  
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 07, 2008 at 16:05 »

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I left after they said "we'll be losing $300 on this deal!"

Should have told them that with their terrible exchange rate, you'd be paying almost double buying from them. I mean let's all hold hands and shout all things retarded.


Quote
Time to break out the mesmerizing jacket and pictures of Newt.

Do it! Frighten them with the Newt connection.

Use the old, "unless you want your dealership crawling with lesbos by hump day..."
« Last Edit: Jun 07, 2008 at 16:05 by otismalibu » Logged
aj_law
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 08, 2008 at 01:16 »

There's a Hyundai dealer somewhere in the NY/NJ area that's always advertisin' on the local AM stations.

His pitch:

Any Hyundai for 30% off the sticker price.  No haggling.

As to Preach's sitchyashin, what the Sentra's owner like?  Over 50 Y.O.?  Original owner?  Is the car clean?...and I mean clean.  It's pretty easy to tell if a ride has been taken care of or not.

No one knows your car situation better than you.  If you were to get an econo-box, would the Expedition or Cherokee get any use?  What about the bike?  You ride often enough to justify keeping it?

I had several MCs for 10+ years, but it got to the point that I was paying to maintain it for maybe a week or two worth of use a year so I...*sniff*...sold it.  The wife had one too.  Same end result.

The truck, I'd keep.  IMO, if you own a home, a truck is a very useful vehicle.  If you don't own one, you at least need a relative/friend that has one.

Don't you have that new MC that you just won in the raffle too?

 
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steelerfaninCO
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 08, 2008 at 12:25 »

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In any event, never ever buy a dealer car with a trade-in.  Lose every time.  Sell privately, and buy without dealer financing, by your own bank's car loan, or if possible using cash.
Ya, that is mostly true. The only benefit from trading in is the tax break. As in if the car your buying is 15K, and your trade is 8K, then you only pay 7K in sales tax. This mostly benefits more expensive cars. Also, if your selling privately, you may not be able to sell it when you want to. Especially now. Sure the trade in price is always lower than FMV, but you can get rid of your car whenever you want to. If your trading in, never tell the dealer that upfront, always get a set price for the car you are buying, then go back and talk about your trade. Salespeople will just try to get you focused on your payment, without really going over how much the new car is, and how much you got for your trade..... But if you can sell privately, you will most likely get more for your car.

Preach, gas ain't getting any cheaper. I would drop the 2000 Ford, as its worth the most, and right on the cusp of depreciating to super low numbers. The gas savings, if you get the Sentra, could be 40 bucks or more a month, depending on how much you drive. I wouldn't worry about the insurance, unless you don't have collision on your cars. If you finance the new one, you have to have collision.


Since I am a serial car buyer, I may not be the best person to get advice from( I am always for buying new cars and actually love the whole process), but I think it would be a good move. If the Sentra is at a Nissan dealer, have them throw in a CPO warranty. If its a private seller, definately have a mechanic check it out, and CARFAX it. It should still have the manufactor's warranty on it, but you want to make sure it hasn't been in an accident, and you want to know the registration history.

 Remember, its a buyer's market, and almost everyone is desperate to sell cars right now. Work them hard. Get the price you want. Get multiple dealerships to have a Dutch auction. Use the tried and true Finny walk out technique. Have fun out there and good luck.
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 09, 2008 at 17:03 »

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( I am always for buying new cars and actually love the whole process)
Now there's something I never thought I'd see.
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 09, 2008 at 17:46 »

There is something 'fun' about buying new wheels.

And 3/4 new vehicles I've bought were manly 4x4s which are kinda fun to drive off the lot.

Now I barely find the time the wash the vehicles. When I was in my early 20s, I'd wash my ride 3-4 a week.
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 09, 2008 at 21:42 »

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Quote
( I am always for buying new cars and actually love the whole process)
Now there's something I never thought I'd see.
Ya, I'm afraid I'm a bit freakish with that, but I just love fucking with the salespeople. Also, I'm way into cars and almost always order the car in advance to my exact specs, sometimes without even knowing the price, so its a little different for me. To my wife's great consternation(and conversely her benefit), I usually replace my fleet every 2 years, and have a few others laying about as well. I'm almost ready to replace my daily driver, but the car I want isn't on sale yet, so I will have to wait until it becomes available.
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JackSplat
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 09, 2008 at 23:20 »

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It's pretty easy to tell if a ride has been taken care of or not.
 
you obviously have never heard of the pine tree car freshner???????  the evolution of this thing has gone through some crazy changes over the years.  they actually fashioned it into the form of a tree.  go figgger!  those crazy scientists have made it so it turns a junker into a caddy as soon as you open the package. (which contains 3 btw). more than enough to fool the unsuspecting buyer until the transaction is complete.

buying a car is more painful than a root canal.  never met car salesman that i ever liked in my life.  you either get the scrawny little punk kid who will most likely be terminated after his second month from not meeting his quota.  or the old dude who has been there about as many years you have been alive, hates his life, hates his job, and really has no clue about the car he is selling, and is soo afraid to make any type of deal without meeting with the general manager about 30 gillion times during the negotiation phase type.  Or my ultimate favorite, the superduper, muscle bound, loud talker,  fast talker, fuck you in the ass whenevr possible, the bestest of buddies, type salesman.  either way, your paying more than you should, getting boned on your trade-in, and hating your purchase the moment you drive it off the lot.

but anyway, unload the gas hogs, and get an ecomomy car ASAP.  i've owned a home for some years now and never had the need for a truck.  i dont do any hauling...just dump my junk on the curb and let the trash dudes sift through it.  besides there are always a dozen peeps that i can always borrow their pickups if i ever need to transport some building materials.  and my out of pocket expense....$10 bucks.  you WILL see some savings driving anything other than your gas guzzlers.  especially when gas prices hit the 'Lincoln' mark by fall

 
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 07:03 »

Started the new job AND closed on the Tucson yesterday.  Long day, but got the dealer to $18,100.  Not my target, but I think he knew I was getting desperate to close.  And still slightly under what I had budgeted.  Always cool to look at the odometer and see 21.3.

Good news is that the new gig is ~15-20 minutes of straight highway driving, so hopefully take advantage of the decent highway mileage.
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Preacherman0
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 10:55 »

Good deal, Finny.  Just out of curiosity, I looked at a Tucson, just to see what they were like.  Pretty nice vehicle, IMO, and doesn't Hyundai have some outrageous warranty now?

Quote
I had several MCs for 10+ years, but it got to the point that I was paying to maintain it for maybe a week or two worth of use a year so I...*sniff*...sold it. The wife had one too. Same end result.

The truck, I'd keep. IMO, if you own a home, a truck is a very useful vehicle. If you don't own one, you at least need a relative/friend that has one.

Don't you have that new MC that you just won in the raffle too?

Dude, I am running this MC into the ground!  50 mpg, I drive it every single day.  In SC, weather should stay warm and dry enough to keep that up for a while.

Well, I finally called Sat. morning to buy the Sentra.  Title history is clean, it's been well cared-for.  But, of course, they had already sold it.  However, the lady selling said that the buyer "was trying to get his money together" and wouldn't have it until this FRIDAY.  But, he'd put down a deposit.  I told her that I'd bring her a deposit and have her money on Monday, but she wanted to wait on the other guy.  May be her loss, cause if it takes this guy a week to get a car loan then it doesn't bode well, IMO.

Whatever.

I've run the numbers several more times, and there is no doubt that we'll benefit from buying a gas-saver.  Even if we keep all the other vehicles (which is not a given), we can save enough to basically pay for the thing, no problem.  We drive a lot, contrary to Otis' historical perspective.  And by the way, Otis, I'll have you know that I'm not diddling anyone other than the wife--and get some counseling for that Catholic upbringing, it will help!

Quote
Another local dealer was even higher still, and I left after they said "we'll be losing $300 on this deal!" Like a care salesman ever loses ANY money on ANY deal.

I hate that stupid-ass line more than any of them that car dealers pull.  That is such a friggin' lie.  My wife worked in the finance office at A & L Motors in Monroeville (where she also met LC Greenwood and JT Thomas).  She heard that "We're losing money on this deal" thing all the time, and said that it's total BS.  They might lose money on the amount they HOPED to make on a car, but she never processed a single deal where they lost a penny.




 
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« Reply #17 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 11:16 »

Hyundai's safety and reliability ratings have gone up a good bit since about 2005.  Problems per 1000 only behind Porsche and Lexus.  But of course, it's pretty bare bones for most of the cheaper models, although they are venturing into the luxury field.  So the interior's not as sleek, there aren't as many bells and whistles, but if it runs well and looks OK, I'm cool with that.  Tucosn's like a poor man's Honda CR-V.

Preach, keep checking back with the seller in case the financing falls through.  That happens all the time...
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 13:21 »

Finny,

Good news! Looks like Gay Wheels gave your vehicle two thumbs up.

Maybe those aren't thumbs.
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« Reply #19 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 13:59 »

Reading the descriptions and info on that site seems much less intimidating that reading Edmunds or something.  Otis is so hip to the cool sites!!!!!!
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 14:15 »

Congrats on the new ride Finny. I'm interested to see how Hyundai's first foray into the luxury market with the Genesis turns out. I think they should pull a Toyota and invent a new brand.  
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« Reply #21 on: Jun 10, 2008 at 18:18 »

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Finny,

Good news! Looks like Gay Wheels gave your vehicle two thumbs up.

Maybe those aren't thumbs.

 Just can't bring myself to click that link.

I'm afraid the "thumbs" will spooge their approval.

One day in: handles nicely, pretty tight turning, only a 4 cyl. and at times you notice that (first gear burst, some hills), but not enough to really care.  It's nice to have that new car smell.  I learned to drive on a Bronco and a Blazer, and haven't driven a truck/SUV substantially since.  I do enjoy the elevated view.  It's really more of a "tall car" than a truck, but for the cargo room and general "dude needs some elbow room" room, it works well enough.

 
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 13, 2008 at 08:11 »

*Sigh*

Three days in, the first ding.  Knew it would happen, had hoped it would happen much later.  Saw what I thought was dirt, didn't come off when I rubbed it with my finger, realized there were two spots where someone opened an adjacent car door into it and removed some paint.  MFers.
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 13, 2008 at 08:55 »

It's fucked now Finny.

Might as well put some of those bullet hole stickers on it and slap a Maximum Grilled bug deflector on front.

I assume you've already added the CB.
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