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The Emperor
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« on: Aug 08, 2008 at 23:29 »

The war between Russia and Georgia could pull us in to a fight with Russia.  Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq and is a strong ally of the U.S. thoughts?
« Last Edit: Aug 09, 2008 at 08:36 by The Emperor » Logged

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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 09, 2008 at 07:48 »

DAMMIT!

Russkies are screwing everything up.


The war we really want right now is with IRAN...  Now what are we gonna do?!?
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 12, 2008 at 23:13 »

Putin wanted to flex his muscles just enough to make his point clear, he did so and now it's basically over.  There was no way in hell we were going to put boots on the ground.  We couldn't afford to.  We are fighting on two fronts, the last thing we needed to do or that we were going to do is get into a fight with Russia or with anyone else for that matter.  

My only question.....where in the hell was the UN when all this was happening?  That has to be the most useless organization in the world.  It accomplishes absolutely nothing in this world.  We are expected to solve the world's problems and when it's not done to the satisfaction of country's such as France, Germany, Russia, China etc., we get criticized.  It's a joke.
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War
« Reply #3 on: Aug 13, 2008 at 11:29 »

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The war between Russia and Georgia could pull us in to a fight with Russia. Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq and is a strong ally of the U.S. thoughts?

My guess is that Georgia is our ally to stick it to Russia more than actually being our "friend."  

The slavic nations have been fighting longer than anyone other than arabic nations and Jews.  I doubt that it's going to stop anytime soon, or that we can do much to get it to stop.  Sit it out and let them deal with it.
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The Emperor
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 13, 2008 at 16:02 »

At the very least I think it is safe to say ( and sadly) that the cold war is back.  Putan has made a bigger fool out of Bush than he did on his own!  SAD!
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 13, 2008 at 17:50 »

It's funny listening to some of the nimrods on CNN and MSNBC putting some of the blame on Bush because of this situation.  Hell, why not? When in doubt, blame Bush.  Seems to work.  They argue that if Bush built up a stronger relationship with Putin, this situation could have been avoided.  Ummm...yeah, sure.  I'm sure if Bush went down on Putin two-three years ago this situation could have been avoided.  I love how some are attempting (in failing manner) to put this one on Bush.

Up to this point I do not see Putin listening to Merkel, Sarkozy, Napolitano or any other leader of a major country.  Hell, minus Sarkozy, we are the only ones speaking out against the attacks or attempting to settle this little dispute.  Bush can only do so much with this situation.  What are some expecting him to do? Fire up the F-16's?  Yeah, that would go over real well in this country and around the globe.  So the guy is attempting to talk Russia out of moving any further and he's still being criticized.  The man is in a lose/lose situation.

By no means am I a fan of George W. Bush (second term), but it's amusing listening to some of these far left loons attempt to pin this on him.  Here's an idea, call up the UN and tell them to do something about it.  Be useful for once or are they still counting the cash from the Oil-For-Food Programme?  Hey, we can call up Benon Sevan, he will help clear up this situation!  
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 13, 2008 at 18:09 »

I agree with you on this one, Pgh-Steel.  Good analyses.  The whole South Ossetia uprising was pretty much staged by Russia as premise for invasion, and Putin wants to make sure that whatever overtures Georgia (and Ukraine) make to the West, they don't give up too much.  And the US and Europe may want those countries in NATO or the G8, but they sure as hell aren't putting boots on the ground.  

Don't see it as the Cold War revisited, so much as Russia reasserting some boundaries.  They made their point: when the shit hits the fan, there's no cavalry, kids.  So listen to Papa Putin.  

IMO, the blue helmets had their chance to make an impact in the 90s with some African genocide, and flopped.  Hell, where were they in the Israeli-Palestinian shit?  They are definitely now toothless, and have been, and will be.  UN is a bully pulpit, or a place where resolutions are passed to allow bullies to start bullshit wars.
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 09:38 »

I will add one point to the Georgia war, and that is the connection of Randy Scheunemann to the McCain campaign.  With the likes of this guy and Bill Kristol, McCain is moving into some very, very troubling territory.  Scheunemann is, IMO, one evil mother.  Just Google him up and you can't help but see Georgia as some pawn in the ongoing PNAC machinations that led to the Iraq war.  I mean, for chrissakes, if this is about Georgia's oil pipelines and getting Georgia a US military presence, I don't know what kind of country we're becoming.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 11:39 »

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"Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election?

Before you dismiss that possibility, consider the role of one Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 11:40 »

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MOSCOW -- The past week's events in South Ossetia are bound to shock and pain anyone. Already, thousands of people have died, tens of thousands have been turned into refugees, and towns and villages lie in ruins. Nothing can justify this loss of life and destruction. It is a warning to all. The roots of this tragedy lie in the decision of Georgia's separatist leaders in 1991 to abolish South Ossetian autonomy. This turned out to be a time bomb for Georgia's territorial integrity. Each time successive Georgian leaders tried to impose their will by force -- both in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia, where the issues of autonomy are similar -- it only made the situation worse. New wounds aggravated old injuries. Nevertheless, it was still possible to find a political solution. For some time, relative calm was maintained in South Ossetia. The peacekeeping force composed of Russians, Georgians and Ossetians fulfilled its mission, and ordinary Ossetians and Georgians, who live close to each other, found at least some common ground.
Through all these years, Russia has continued to recognize Georgia's territorial integrity. Clearly, the only way to solve the South Ossetian problem on that basis is through peaceful means. Indeed, in a civilized world, there is no other way. The Georgian leadership flouted this key principle.

What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.
Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

In other words, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili was expecting unconditional support from the West, and the West had given him reason to think he would have it. Now that the Georgian military assault has been routed, both the Georgian government and its supporters should rethink their position. Hostilities must cease as soon as possible, and urgent steps must be taken to help the victims -- the humanitarian catastrophe, regretfully, received very little coverage in Western media this weekend -- and to rebuild the devastated towns and villages. It is equally important to start thinking about ways to solve the underlying problem, which is among the most painful and challenging issues in the Caucasus -- a region that should be approached with the greatest care.
not just in the Caucasus.

The writer was the last president of the Soviet Union. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990 and is president of the Gorbachev Foundation
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2008 at 11:41 by Finnegans Wake » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 13:24 »

No way that McCain or his advisers put Georgia up that. I cannot even fathom that a potential U.S. President/current U.S. leader would want to stir up a hornets nest as friggin' large as Russia. It is completely unfathomable, and to have that type of thought process is just a desperate ploy by the far left to disparage McCain. And I am not even voting for the man. It is WAYYYYYY out there man.

Having said that. If it is true (and I believe it not to be in a major way), Americans have to retake control of our country as was done in 1776. That would be a more treasonous an act on the American people as any in our history.
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2008 at 13:25 by vinman3 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 13:39 »

I just find the themes of those two articles eerily similar, though from outsider and insider perspectives.  And any time someone in PNAC is involved in anything, I smell rat.  The timing seems odd to have been orchestrated by or on behalf of McCain, though.  
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 14:35 »

One other point of circumstance.  McCain was in the news yesterday as saying he speaks with the Georgian president "every day."

Also, it hardly seems coincidental that McCain's shift towards the Bush position on various policies has come about since he added in PNAC types (Kristol, Scheuneman) and ex-Karl Rove sidekick Steve Schmidt.  I think PNAC is the invisible empire that's hijacking the Republican party and US foreign policy.  They beat the drum incessantly to invade Iraq since the mid-1990s, and their 2000 report states "[f]urther, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 14, 2008 at 14:36 »

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Having said that. If it is true (and I believe it not to be in a major way), Americans have to retake control of our country as was done in 1776. That would be a more treasonous an act on the American people as any in our history.
I think the events of the last 8 years are tantamount to that very charge.

This country is moving in a scary direction.  
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 15, 2008 at 08:35 »

Rather coincidental.

Some say there are no coincidences in life...
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 15, 2008 at 08:55 »

As usual, Glenn Beck's analysis is about as deep as Howdy Doody.  But at least he grasps that this is a proxy war.  Well, Saakashvili said it was a proxy war, and Beck seems to comprehend.  God this guy annoys me.  His response is pretty knee-jerk.

It would be nice if some journalist could go out and really look at the US and USSR's larger strategic objectives.  Like, WHY are we pushing for Eastern European missile defense, when the Cold War is over?  
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The Emperor
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 15, 2008 at 23:54 »

Lets hope these threats of nuclear attack are just?   Hell no need for anybody to start this kind of useless talk.   I used to be scared as a kid in the 70,s and 80,s  Well that feeling is back!   Announcing that missile agreement now is STUPID!  Lets make a very bad situation worse???  We did not want Russian missiles in Cuba so why should they want them in there back yard.  We need to back off screwing with these Russian idiots.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080816/ap_on_...iYKFbWLzuuROrgF
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 16, 2008 at 12:38 »

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Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski was quoted Friday by the Polish news agency PAP as saying that Poland is open to Russian inspections because it wants to give Moscow "tangible proof" that the planned base is not directed against Russia.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Personally, I have no problem with my country helping out our allies by giving them defense systems.  Both countries have served faithfully in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years.  There are plenty of countries out there that have missile defense systems.  There is a big difference between giving a country a defense system and a country moving missiles to the borders of Russia and having them aimed at Moscow.

IMO, there is also a HUGE difference between giving Poland and the CR a defense system and Russia pointing missiles at our country from Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Apples and oranges in my opinion.  I can't imagine Poland or the CR attacking Russia or moving missile batteries close to Russian territory.  Although after these recent events, I can imagine it being the other way around.

From my point of view, Russia seems to be playing the "Look, America and the Allies are the aggressors" card, meanwhile they are the ones who continued to drive deeper into Georgian territory after Georgia signed a cease fire.  Poland (and CR) scratched our backs in Afghanistan and Iraq and continue to do so, now we are scratching Poland's back.  

As our U.S. officials stated, the defense system has been in the making for some time now.  It's not like Russia attacked South Ossetia and Abkhazian launching a series of air strikes against Georgian forces and we decided to hurry up and build defense systems for Poland and the CR.  Typical Russian propoganda bullshit, attempting to make it look like "woe is me, poor old Russia.  Big bad USA is being aggressive".  I've seen that face before.
« Last Edit: Aug 16, 2008 at 15:46 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 20, 2008 at 19:00 »

Quote
Quote
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski was quoted Friday by the Polish news agency PAP as saying that Poland is open to Russian inspections because it wants to give Moscow "tangible proof" that the planned base is not directed against Russia.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Personally, I have no problem with my country helping out our allies by giving them defense systems.  Both countries have served faithfully in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years.  There are plenty of countries out there that have missile defense systems.  There is a big difference between giving a country a defense system and a country moving missiles to the borders of Russia and having them aimed at Moscow.

IMO, there is also a HUGE difference between giving Poland and the CR a defense system and Russia pointing missiles at our country from Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Apples and oranges in my opinion.  I can't imagine Poland or the CR attacking Russia or moving missile batteries close to Russian territory.  Although after these recent events, I can imagine it being the other way around.

From my point of view, Russia seems to be playing the "Look, America and the Allies are the aggressors" card, meanwhile they are the ones who continued to drive deeper into Georgian territory after Georgia signed a cease fire.  Poland (and CR) scratched our backs in Afghanistan and Iraq and continue to do so, now we are scratching Poland's back.  

As our U.S. officials stated, the defense system has been in the making for some time now.  It's not like Russia attacked South Ossetia and Abkhazian launching a series of air strikes against Georgian forces and we decided to hurry up and build defense systems for Poland and the CR.  Typical Russian propoganda bullshit, attempting to make it look like "woe is me, poor old Russia.  Big bad USA is being aggressive".  I've seen that face before.
None the less I heard today that Russia may be considering deploying their black Jack Bombers in Cuba.  Does anyone here really want to have a nuclear war over that missile defense system.  I know I do not!
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 20, 2008 at 22:34 »

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None the less I heard today that Russia may be considering deploying their black Jack Bombers in Cuba.  Does anyone here really want to have a nuclear war over that missile defense system.  I know I do not!

Here's a better question to ponder, does anyone here really think Russia wants to start a nuclear war with the most powerful nation on the globe?  It's not like our arsenal of goodies consists of firecrackers and squirt guns.  Russia knows what we are packing and they realize the consequences.  Between our own defense systems and the fact that we could erase Russia off the map in two seconds, that wouldn't be a smart move on Russia's part from a military perspective.  

Besides it being a dumb move from a military perspective, Russia would take a massive amount of heat from around the world.  It would crush them economically.  They can also say bye-bye to their UN membership and NATO/EU partnership.  They would be outcasted and if they continue to travel on the road they are traveling, it's only going to get worse for Russia.  

Overall, I love the fact that we are not bending over for Russia.  Who in the hell are they tell us who we can and cannot help?  Who are they to say who can and who cannot have defense systems in this world?  Germany has a defense system, are they next?  Italy has defense systems, are they next?  By giving Poland and the CR a defense system and helping out ourselves and our allies, we have also given Russia a propoganda tool.  "Look, there's the USA and it's allies being aggressive".  Meanwhile, the defense system has been in the works for months now and Poland's President has given Russian officials permission to check it out for themselves.  The missiles are not even pointed at anyone in particular, let alone Russia.  Unfortunately, many are buying into the Russian propoganda.  I guess many can see through it and some are actually buying into it.  To me, it's as clear as day.

Eitherway, I'm not ready to start digging my underground bunker, stocking up on canned goods and water while running up and down my street screaming "the Ruskies are coming! the Ruskies are coming! Save yourselves!".  Yeah, I don't see myself turning into Patrick Swayze in the movie "Red Dawn" anytime soon.

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« Reply #20 on: Sep 12, 2008 at 19:08 »

Quote
Quote
None the less I heard today that Russia may be considering deploying their black Jack Bombers in Cuba.
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 02:15 »

I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.  

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 09:06 »

Quote
I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.  

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
.I do not think we are at that point yet.  Hope we never get there!  I just think we should ( not take crap from them) try and calm things down.  The Neo-Cons always seem to want to fight first.  As you say we have plenty to worry about with terrorist we don't need more enemies.
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:20 »

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Quote
I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.   

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
.I do not think we are at that point yet.  Hope we never get there!  I just think we should ( not take crap from them) try and calm things down.  The Neo-Cons always seem to want to fight first.  As you say we have plenty to worry about with terrorist we don't need more enemies.
Personally, I think we are way off that point, that's why I'm not ready to tell other's to start building nuclear bunkers nor am I ready to start screaming up and down my streets that the Russians are ready to fire a nuke at our country.  Apparently, the rest of the country is not ready for that and quite frankly, neither is Russia from what I've seen and heard.  I'm not seeing bombers in Cuba or nuclear weapons stationed in Cuba or nuclear weapons in general point in our direction.    

Then again, I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with our country helping out our allies with missile defense systems.  I mean...unless Russia plans on invading the CR or Poland, what are they worried about?  Last time I checked, we have no plans of invading Russia.  Last time I checked, Poland has no plans of invading Russia nor does the CR.  WTF does Russia have to worry about?  I already know the answer to that question (propoganda/playing the game), but it's funny to watch Russia play it and others buy into it time and time and time again.
 
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:43 »

Mexico has no plans to invade the US.  Cuba has no plans to invade the US.  Ecuador has no plans to invade the US.  Argentina has no plans to invade the US.  Nicaragua has no plans to invade the US.  Bolivia has no plans to invade the US.  Venezuala has no plans to invade the US.

By BushLogic, you're cool then with the Russkies arming these countries to the motherfucking teats with nukes -- as a "deterrent" to any perceived US aggressions.

Right?

Right???

We cool with that?

 
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:48 »

Yep, much like when...

Clinton was cool with a number of threats from Bin Laden/terrorists....

the attacks occured on our own soil and against our armed forces across waters......

we simply put up with it.....

9/11 occured....

now we are here.

But Clinton is rarely to blame.  It's much easier to point the finger at Bush for all the world's past, present and future problems.

Personally, I don't care if it's Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain or John Wayne in office, I'm simply not ready to dive for cover when it comes to the Russians.  I'm more worried about Iran and their fun with nuclear recipes.
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 20:36 »

Quote
Mexico has no plans to invade the US.  Cuba has no plans to invade the US.  Ecuador has no plans to invade the US.  Argentina has no plans to invade the US.  Nicaragua has no plans to invade the US.  Bolivia has no plans to invade the US.  Venezuala has no plans to invade the US.

By BushLogic, you're cool then with the Russkies arming these countries to the motherfucking teats with nukes -- as a "deterrent" to any perceived US aggressions.

Right?

Right???

We cool with that?
 I say stay out of their back yard and they should stay out of ours.  
 If France is attacked by Russia ( Nato ) then we should defend them, but to bring countries such as Georgia into Nato now is a mistake that McCain and Palin think is a good idea.  I also am against ( as you know ) putting these missile defense systems in EU countries.   If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.  bush also said we reserve the right to launch a nuclear first strike on any country we see as a threat.  He also invaded Iraq.  I ask what the hell are the Russians supposed to think?
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 00:52 »

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If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.  bush also said we reserve the right to launch a nuclear first strike on any country we see as a threat.  He also invaded Iraq.  I ask what the hell are the Russians supposed to think?
We did not "break" the treaty.  We pulled out of the treaty so we can build those things that you stated we do not have enough of.......missile defense systems.  Afterall, we supposedly only spend "20 cents" per person on our defense systems compared to Russia's "$20 per person".  The funny part, your getting more upset than the Russian's and the Chinese over the decision to pull out.  The Russians and the Chinese did not really care.  They took it pretty damn well.  Then after we pulled out of the AMB Treaty, shortyly after we (Russia, China, USA) signed the SOR Treaty, which helped mandate the deepest ever cuts in deployed strategic nuclear warheads.  

So in reality, we didn't "break the treaty", we didn't piss off Russia or China by pulling out of the treaty and for those who actually want to give Bush credit for once instead of simply throwing out false statements and assumptions, some would even argue that we established a better and more effective treaty.  

Do you have that Bush quote by the way?  The one about how we reserve the right to fire off a nuke first?  Just curious.  Eitherway, Iran stated they were going to clean Israel off the map, should Russia be scared of Iran?  If I were Russia, I would be more scared of some crazy bastard in Iran, China or North Korea when it comes to firing off a nuclear warhead out of the clear blue.  They are the ones who have actually threatened to nuke other countries (not us) and they are the ones who actually run their respected countries like dictators (not us).  

I'm not exactly sure what invading Iraq has to do with Russia's security, but okay.  Russia invaded Georgia, should we automatically make the assumption that they are going to invade the USA next?  Should we become paranoid and start aiming our missiles at Russia?  So I guess if Argentina attacks Italy tomorrow morning, Russia should start fearing Argentina.  Then I can get to hear their typical B.S. threats and flexing of the muscle.

I've said it once and I'll say it one more time and I'm done with this topic, what gives Russia the right to say who can and who cannot have a defense system?  I do not hear Poland or the CR bitching and crying about how Russia has a defense system.  I do not see Italy, Germany, France, China, North Korea, Iran or anyone else for that matter bitching and moaning when it comes to Poland and CR receiving defense systems.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008 at 00:58 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 07:08 »

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Yep, much like when...

Clinton was cool with a number of threats from Bin Laden/terrorists....

the attacks occured on our own soil and against our armed forces across waters......

we simply put up with it.....

9/11 occured....

now we are here.

But Clinton is rarely to blame.  It's much easier to point the finger at Bush for all the world's past, present and future problems.

Personally, I don't care if it's Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain or John Wayne in office, I'm simply not ready to dive for cover when it comes to the Russians.  I'm more worried about Iran and their fun with nuclear recipes.
This is the staple rhetorical device of Bush supporters.  "But CLINTON..."  

Problem is, I was referring specifically to a foreign policy put out there by George W. Bush.  Not Bill Clinton.  Not George HW Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon...  So bringing Clinton into the argument is merely to send the discussion into other tangents.  I know you may not have read all my various political musings over the years here, but if you had you would know that I'm not particularly a fan of Bill Clinton and what I refer to as his "will o' the wisp" policy-making.  That, however, is neither here nor there.

It's my contention, simply put, that the US is pushing for Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO in order to put nuclear weapons in those countries or, at the very least, place substantial conventional weapons there.  This is a relatively new twist, one that we did not see prior to the present administration, and I believe that it is part of a larger blueprint of failed foreign policy put forward by the PNAC braintrust (partly in its statement of goals of the 2000 paper, and partly in "shadow goals" floated in the current administration and affiliated consultants).

PNAC floated the idea of the Iraq war well prior to 9/11, and further pushed the idea of multiple regime changes in the Middle East (as well as possibly Libya and North Korea), as well as pressuring Russia by the very sort of encirclement we see Bush putting into action.  The entire policy is, IMHO, a disastrous one from start to finish, and looks to be the product of some overzealous wonks who played too much Risk as children.  Iraq very much aside, the agitation of the Soviets serves no post-Cold War purpose in a world where our foremost security issue is how to battle the new threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.  I can't think of any way in which this administration has done anything well in that battle, frankly.  And to start friction with the Soviets via proxy wars is asinine.

Suggested reading:  Michael Scheuer's various books on al Qaeda and bin Laden, and the West's gross failure of comprehension to even frame the discussion; "Legacy of Ashes"; anything you can Google on the PNAC.

My question is, what do we really hope to gain through this policy of putting nukes near the Soviets?  And my post above was meant to illustrate that if the Soviets followed the very same policy, it would be a redux of the Cuban Missile Crisis, multiplied.  We expect the Soviets to simply put their tail between their legs and follow whatever we decide on their behalf.  That is not  a policy, as stated, that former presidents pursued.  Reagan's Cold War victory was far different in its methodology and goals.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 08:15 »

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If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008 at 08:33 by The Emperor » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: Sep 19, 2008 at 23:58 »

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If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 02, 2008 at 12:16 »

So much for the defense system.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081002/wl_nm/us_russia_forces
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 02, 2008 at 13:49 »



$100B down the toilet for Star Wars.  $700B (so far) down the toilet for Bush's Folly (Iraq)... hell, let's be realistic, the Nobel economists say it will he $3 trillion.  Might as well figure the inevitable bailout won't just be for $700B, either.  Mark that down for $1.5 or $2 trillion.

George W. Bush should title his memoirs How I Doubled the National Debt and Killed More Americans than Died in 9/11, in 8 Short Years.
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