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Author Topic: War  (Read 3045 times)
The Emperor
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War
« Reply #20 on: Sep 12, 2008 at 19:08 »

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None the less I heard today that Russia may be considering deploying their black Jack Bombers in Cuba.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 02:15 »

I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.  

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2008 at 02:28 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
The Emperor
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 09:06 »

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I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.  

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
.I do not think we are at that point yet.  Hope we never get there!  I just think we should ( not take crap from them) try and calm things down.  The Neo-Cons always seem to want to fight first.  As you say we have plenty to worry about with terrorist we don't need more enemies.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:20 »

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I think I will wait until there is actually a war declared.  I'm still waiting for those bombers to land in Cuba.  Just a tad bit premature in my opinion.  I'm still not ready to go Swayze on the Ruskies.   

It seems like things have cooled down to me.  Russian troops are pulling out of Georgia, if they haven't completely pulled out already.  I pretty much stopped paying attention to the situation because it has pretty much died down.  I'm not stating or expecting Putin and Bush or Putin and McCain or Putin and Obama to hug and kiss on national tv.  That's never going to happen.  The relationship between our two nations has always been strained and always will be in my opinion, but Russia making threats and flexing their muscles (which they have done a number of times in the past) and firing a nuke at our nation is a big difference in my opinion.

As of right now in life, I'm more worried about Abdul Azaarboodi planting a bomb on his chest and blowing up a building in our country than I am of the Russians starting a nuclear war, sorry.  But hey, if you think the Ruskies are ready to fire a nuke at the states, more power to you.
.I do not think we are at that point yet.  Hope we never get there!  I just think we should ( not take crap from them) try and calm things down.  The Neo-Cons always seem to want to fight first.  As you say we have plenty to worry about with terrorist we don't need more enemies.
Personally, I think we are way off that point, that's why I'm not ready to tell other's to start building nuclear bunkers nor am I ready to start screaming up and down my streets that the Russians are ready to fire a nuke at our country.  Apparently, the rest of the country is not ready for that and quite frankly, neither is Russia from what I've seen and heard.  I'm not seeing bombers in Cuba or nuclear weapons stationed in Cuba or nuclear weapons in general point in our direction.    

Then again, I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with our country helping out our allies with missile defense systems.  I mean...unless Russia plans on invading the CR or Poland, what are they worried about?  Last time I checked, we have no plans of invading Russia.  Last time I checked, Poland has no plans of invading Russia nor does the CR.  WTF does Russia have to worry about?  I already know the answer to that question (propoganda/playing the game), but it's funny to watch Russia play it and others buy into it time and time and time again.
 
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Finnegans Wake
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War
« Reply #24 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:43 »

Mexico has no plans to invade the US.  Cuba has no plans to invade the US.  Ecuador has no plans to invade the US.  Argentina has no plans to invade the US.  Nicaragua has no plans to invade the US.  Bolivia has no plans to invade the US.  Venezuala has no plans to invade the US.

By BushLogic, you're cool then with the Russkies arming these countries to the motherfucking teats with nukes -- as a "deterrent" to any perceived US aggressions.

Right?

Right???

We cool with that?

 
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 18:48 »

Yep, much like when...

Clinton was cool with a number of threats from Bin Laden/terrorists....

the attacks occured on our own soil and against our armed forces across waters......

we simply put up with it.....

9/11 occured....

now we are here.

But Clinton is rarely to blame.  It's much easier to point the finger at Bush for all the world's past, present and future problems.

Personally, I don't care if it's Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain or John Wayne in office, I'm simply not ready to dive for cover when it comes to the Russians.  I'm more worried about Iran and their fun with nuclear recipes.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008 at 00:10 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
The Emperor
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 13, 2008 at 20:36 »

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Mexico has no plans to invade the US.  Cuba has no plans to invade the US.  Ecuador has no plans to invade the US.  Argentina has no plans to invade the US.  Nicaragua has no plans to invade the US.  Bolivia has no plans to invade the US.  Venezuala has no plans to invade the US.

By BushLogic, you're cool then with the Russkies arming these countries to the motherfucking teats with nukes -- as a "deterrent" to any perceived US aggressions.

Right?

Right???

We cool with that?
 I say stay out of their back yard and they should stay out of ours.  
 If France is attacked by Russia ( Nato ) then we should defend them, but to bring countries such as Georgia into Nato now is a mistake that McCain and Palin think is a good idea.  I also am against ( as you know ) putting these missile defense systems in EU countries.   If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.  bush also said we reserve the right to launch a nuclear first strike on any country we see as a threat.  He also invaded Iraq.  I ask what the hell are the Russians supposed to think?
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 00:52 »

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If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.  bush also said we reserve the right to launch a nuclear first strike on any country we see as a threat.  He also invaded Iraq.  I ask what the hell are the Russians supposed to think?
We did not "break" the treaty.  We pulled out of the treaty so we can build those things that you stated we do not have enough of.......missile defense systems.  Afterall, we supposedly only spend "20 cents" per person on our defense systems compared to Russia's "$20 per person".  The funny part, your getting more upset than the Russian's and the Chinese over the decision to pull out.  The Russians and the Chinese did not really care.  They took it pretty damn well.  Then after we pulled out of the AMB Treaty, shortyly after we (Russia, China, USA) signed the SOR Treaty, which helped mandate the deepest ever cuts in deployed strategic nuclear warheads.  

So in reality, we didn't "break the treaty", we didn't piss off Russia or China by pulling out of the treaty and for those who actually want to give Bush credit for once instead of simply throwing out false statements and assumptions, some would even argue that we established a better and more effective treaty.  

Do you have that Bush quote by the way?  The one about how we reserve the right to fire off a nuke first?  Just curious.  Eitherway, Iran stated they were going to clean Israel off the map, should Russia be scared of Iran?  If I were Russia, I would be more scared of some crazy bastard in Iran, China or North Korea when it comes to firing off a nuclear warhead out of the clear blue.  They are the ones who have actually threatened to nuke other countries (not us) and they are the ones who actually run their respected countries like dictators (not us).  

I'm not exactly sure what invading Iraq has to do with Russia's security, but okay.  Russia invaded Georgia, should we automatically make the assumption that they are going to invade the USA next?  Should we become paranoid and start aiming our missiles at Russia?  So I guess if Argentina attacks Italy tomorrow morning, Russia should start fearing Argentina.  Then I can get to hear their typical B.S. threats and flexing of the muscle.

I've said it once and I'll say it one more time and I'm done with this topic, what gives Russia the right to say who can and who cannot have a defense system?  I do not hear Poland or the CR bitching and crying about how Russia has a defense system.  I do not see Italy, Germany, France, China, North Korea, Iran or anyone else for that matter bitching and moaning when it comes to Poland and CR receiving defense systems.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008 at 00:58 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
Finnegans Wake
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War
« Reply #28 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 07:08 »

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Yep, much like when...

Clinton was cool with a number of threats from Bin Laden/terrorists....

the attacks occured on our own soil and against our armed forces across waters......

we simply put up with it.....

9/11 occured....

now we are here.

But Clinton is rarely to blame.  It's much easier to point the finger at Bush for all the world's past, present and future problems.

Personally, I don't care if it's Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain or John Wayne in office, I'm simply not ready to dive for cover when it comes to the Russians.  I'm more worried about Iran and their fun with nuclear recipes.
This is the staple rhetorical device of Bush supporters.  "But CLINTON..."  

Problem is, I was referring specifically to a foreign policy put out there by George W. Bush.  Not Bill Clinton.  Not George HW Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon...  So bringing Clinton into the argument is merely to send the discussion into other tangents.  I know you may not have read all my various political musings over the years here, but if you had you would know that I'm not particularly a fan of Bill Clinton and what I refer to as his "will o' the wisp" policy-making.  That, however, is neither here nor there.

It's my contention, simply put, that the US is pushing for Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO in order to put nuclear weapons in those countries or, at the very least, place substantial conventional weapons there.  This is a relatively new twist, one that we did not see prior to the present administration, and I believe that it is part of a larger blueprint of failed foreign policy put forward by the PNAC braintrust (partly in its statement of goals of the 2000 paper, and partly in "shadow goals" floated in the current administration and affiliated consultants).

PNAC floated the idea of the Iraq war well prior to 9/11, and further pushed the idea of multiple regime changes in the Middle East (as well as possibly Libya and North Korea), as well as pressuring Russia by the very sort of encirclement we see Bush putting into action.  The entire policy is, IMHO, a disastrous one from start to finish, and looks to be the product of some overzealous wonks who played too much Risk as children.  Iraq very much aside, the agitation of the Soviets serves no post-Cold War purpose in a world where our foremost security issue is how to battle the new threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.  I can't think of any way in which this administration has done anything well in that battle, frankly.  And to start friction with the Soviets via proxy wars is asinine.

Suggested reading:  Michael Scheuer's various books on al Qaeda and bin Laden, and the West's gross failure of comprehension to even frame the discussion; "Legacy of Ashes"; anything you can Google on the PNAC.

My question is, what do we really hope to gain through this policy of putting nukes near the Soviets?  And my post above was meant to illustrate that if the Soviets followed the very same policy, it would be a redux of the Cuban Missile Crisis, multiplied.  We expect the Soviets to simply put their tail between their legs and follow whatever we decide on their behalf.  That is not  a policy, as stated, that former presidents pursued.  Reagan's Cold War victory was far different in its methodology and goals.
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The Emperor
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 14, 2008 at 08:15 »

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If I'm not mistaken we broke the AMB treaty in the early Bush years with the Russians on these.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008 at 08:33 by The Emperor » Logged

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