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Author Topic: Can we be concerned yet?  (Read 1861 times)
PghSteel-43
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« on: Oct 31, 2008 at 21:24 »

I continue to hear....

"Don't worry.  Last season, we didn't come on strong until around December."

Key word there being "last".  This year is a different season, a different team and different situations.  Add that to the fact that there are three other teams in this division who are very capable of making the playoffs every year.

I am thoroughly convinced after watching these last two-three games, that Shero may want to make a move at some point in the near future.  There have been two bright spots on this team, our goaltending (both) and our defense.  That's about where it stops and you can't bank on them every night.  It's not fair to them.  If your offense is completely lacking, both of those bright spots will eventually start to suffer.

At this point, we are capable of putting one line out there that can produce....Sid-Malkin-(insert name).  That's it.  We are unable to get production from our second and third lines.  We have Sid playing with guys who are second/third line wingers at best.  Once again, I'm not looking for a 7-8 million dollar winger.  There are players out there who you can trade for that would cost us around 4-5 million a year.  We could have picked one up in the offseason, but we chose the cheaper and less talented Satan.  You get what you pay for.   

or....

We can continue to watch Therrien juggle the lines every other night to no evail, lose valuable points, drop in the standings and continue to tell ourselves that "It's still early" and "Look what we did last season".
« Last Edit: Oct 31, 2008 at 21:36 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
PghSteel-43
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 31, 2008 at 23:41 »

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« Reply #2 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 09:53 »

When Ty Kennedy and Matt Cooke are on lines 1 and 2, it's time to be concerned.  Both are reasonable for the 3rd line but no higher.

When Bissonette and Godard both dress, it's time to be concerned. 

I heard about a rumor of a trade with ATL for Kov...make it happen.
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Merman1983
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 10:04 »

I've been in this argument with people all season. I don't care if we started slow last year. Watched every game this year except for the last loss in Phoenix, and it's all the same: Goaltending and defense keeping a sloppy offense in games.

Missing Gonch and Whitney can't be helping from an offensive standpoint, but I think Letang has been great and Goligoski has been solid offensively as well as moving the puck up ice, considering how inexperienced he is. The PK has been good and the rest of the D has played well enough to win most of the games.

It's coming down to lack of options on the offensive end. Yeah with have the top two players in the world but they can't turn 3rd liners into 40 goal scorers. ANd putting them on the same line makes it really easy for the opposing team to put out their checking lines and shut them down.


While I don't think Pesonen is the answer, maybe he has a set of NHL hands and can actually finish once in a while when he's setup with a wide open fucking net in front of him. Maybe he can handle a pass in traffic and put in on the net, because outisde 87 and 71 there apparently isn't anyone on this team capable of doing that.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 11:03 »

I heard about a rumor of a trade with ATL for Kov...make it happen.


http://maximumgrilledsteelers.com/index.php?topic=16290.0

Like I said, I listened and did not hear Feaster bring up a deal between the Pens and Thrashers, let alone it involving Kovalchuk.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 12:07 »

When Ty Kennedy and Matt Cooke are on lines 1 and 2, it's time to be concerned.  Both are reasonable for the 3rd line but no higher.

People want to keep blaming the injuries to Whitney and Gonchar for our lack of offensive production and while that doesn't help, that's no excuse for not being able to get shots on net.  It's not the defense's fault that the offense can't take a pass by Crosby or Malkin and put it in a wide-open net.  It's not the defense's fault that when we dump, we don't chase, dig for pucks or cycle the puck down low effectively. 

When Bissonette and Godard both dress, it's time to be concerned.

Oddly enough, I feel Godard has been our best "replacement" player.  He came in to take over for Laraque and he has shown better skills in the offensive zone.  He may not win all his fights, but the guy has no problem dropping the gloves and the fights he does lose, he tends to get a few good ones in there before it's broken up.  I can also say the same about Bissonnette.  The guy is a middle-weight, but he wins fights.  Overall, I feel our fourth line has dones it's specific job the best out of any of the other three lines.  That's not counting Ziggy coming in and winning faceoffs.

We are at the point right now where we are trying to move career fourth liners to the third and second lines and move career third liners to the first line.  It's not working and I can't blame Therrien.  It's not his fault that we went out and grabbed a few third and second (tops) third liners to play with Crosby and Malkin.  Now we are banking on Janne Pesonen to give that offensive spark.  That's scary.  Maybe he comes in and lights up the lamp on that first line, that still leaves us with a second and third that is not producing. 

Before this 'western' road trip, I was willing to give it time and see how they do on the road against a true test.  Hell, I didn't even care if we came away from this road trip with two total points out of a possible six, but we are not even showing up in these games and that's what's concerning.  We look flat, frustrated, confused and most importantly....lackin g overall talent.  A move needs to be made.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 12:23 »

At least Talbot and Therrien are on the same and correct page.  Talbot said it best after the Phoenix loss....

"It's a new year," center Max Talbot said. "If we didn't know that, this should be a pretty good sign."

And Therrien said it best after hearing the excuse making from Gill...

Defenseman Hal Gill suggested that the Penguins are still getting to know one another after a lot of offseason roster changes, but Therrien wasn't buying it.

"That's an excuse," he said.




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whitmer_87
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 12:38 »

I think Gaborik is a free agent after this season, maybe Minnesota tries to deal him if they can't agree to a deal. Gaborik is one of the best wingers in the game, and would certainly be an amazing acquisition...a really expensive one too. I'm a big Jordan Staal fan because he's such a great penalty killer, but I'd deal him to get Gaborik in a heartbeat. The last I heard Minnesota was trying pretty hard to get a deal done though.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 12:59 »

I think Gaborik is a free agent after this season, maybe Minnesota tries to deal him if they can't agree to a deal. Gaborik is one of the best wingers in the game, and would certainly be an amazing acquisition...a really expensive one too. I'm a big Jordan Staal fan because he's such a great penalty killer, but I'd deal him to get Gaborik in a heartbeat. The last I heard Minnesota was trying pretty hard to get a deal done though.

While I love the talent Gaborik can bring to this team, his injury proneness concerns the hell out of me.  Over the last four seasons, the guy has played one season in which he played over 65 games.  He's hurt right now as we speak.  He is getting paid around 7.0 million a year.  That's a good chunk of change to be spending on a guy who can't stay healthy.

IMO, it would be a waste of BIG bucks.  Money that could go towards a different and better trade.
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whitmer_87
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 14:40 »

That's a concern on mine as well. He's definitely injury prone, and it would be a gamble. The upside is pretty high though...He'd definitely want big money too.

What do you think about Martin Havlat? He's had some injuries, but he's a huge talent IMO. Chicago has a young core of players and might try and deal him to make room to keep their future bright. He's currently making 6 Mil a year...

We obviously need a first line winger. Our offense is hurting right now, and I don't see us getting better all of a sudden. Satan is garbage, he can't hang on the first two lines. He's good at positioning himself for garbage goals on the pp though. I wouldn't mind seeing him out there on that, but he's definitely not a 1st or 2nd line winger. I like TK's energy, but I don't think he's got enough talent to be on the first line. Dupuis has played alright, but he can't find the net. Either he has to find the twine or he's gotta move down a line or two. We need help, and I think that the only way we're gonna get that is by making a deal. Like I said, I really like Staal, but a good third line center isn't a rarity in this league. He can be replaced, I just don't know how high is stock is right now. I also wouldn't mind trading Gonchar. I know that sounds crazy, but we have a lot of good defenseman. I think Gonchar is 35 now. He's only got a couple years left in his tank, trading him now while his stock is high would be the smartest move. Thoughts?
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 01, 2008 at 15:20 »

That's a concern on mine as well. He's definitely injury prone, and it would be a gamble. The upside is pretty high though...He'd definitely want big money too.

What do you think about Martin Havlat? He's had some injuries, but he's a huge talent IMO. Chicago has a young core of players and might try and deal him to make room to keep their future bright. He's currently making 6 Mil a year...

We obviously need a first line winger. Our offense is hurting right now, and I don't see us getting better all of a sudden. Satan is garbage, he can't hang on the first two lines. He's good at positioning himself for garbage goals on the pp though. I wouldn't mind seeing him out there on that, but he's definitely not a 1st or 2nd line winger. I like TK's energy, but I don't think he's got enough talent to be on the first line. Dupuis has played alright, but he can't find the net. Either he has to find the twine or he's gotta move down a line or two. We need help, and I think that the only way we're gonna get that is by making a deal. Like I said, I really like Staal, but a good third line center isn't a rarity in this league. He can be replaced, I just don't know how high is stock is right now. I also wouldn't mind trading Gonchar. I know that sounds crazy, but we have a lot of good defenseman. I think Gonchar is 35 now. He's only got a couple years left in his tank, trading him now while his stock is high would be the smartest move. Thoughts?

If Gaborik could stay healthy, there is no doubt the upside is great.  The only problem, the guy can't stay healthy.  He plays six games, breaks a nail and is out for two months.  IMO, that's way too much money to be gambling on a guy who can't stay healthy long enough to have an impact on your team.  Havlat is a better option, only because your spending one million dollars less compared to what you would be paying for Gaborik.  Havlat is still going to cost you around 6 million a year and his longevity is an issue.  This is a team who has to make wise decisions when it comes to spending/trading.

As I've stated before, I would rather see us attempt to go after a Cheechoo or Huselius type player.  Both are making between 4-5 million a year.  I'm not sure the Blue Jackets would be willing to trade for Huselius, simply because he is all they got after Nash and Umberger.  They signed him in the offseason for a little under $5 million a year for four years and he's producing.  Cheechoo on the other hand is a possibility in my opinion.  There were rumors flying around last year pertaining to Shero talking to the Sharks about a Cheechoo deal (for Whitney).  I would love to have either Cheechoo or Huselius.

Gonchar being traded is slim to none for a few reasons in my opinion. 

1 - He's pretty much out for the whole regular season.  I'm not sure too many teams would jump on it for that fact alone.

2 - When and if he comes back for the playoffs and if we are even in the playoffs, we are going to need him.  Particulary when it comes to QB'ing the PP at the point and bringing some type of offensive threat out of that defense.

If both Letang and Goligoski were about five years older and could play at or around Gonchar's level, then I would have no problem dumping Gonchar's salary and age in exchange for a younger forward who can hang on that first line and produce on a regular basis. 









« Last Edit: Nov 01, 2008 at 15:24 by PghSteel-43 » Logged
PghSteel-43
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 05, 2008 at 12:05 »

So much for the Janne Pesonen experiment....

PESONEN & MINARD SENT BACK

The Pittsburgh Penguins have re-assigned forwards Chris Minard and Janne Pesonen to the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins of the American Hockey League (AHL), it was announced today by Executive Vice President and General Manager Ray Shero.

Minard, the 6-1, 200-pound forward played two games, posting three shots and three hits during his stint with Pittsburgh. Prior to his recall, the 26-year old led the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins with 13 points (seven goals, six assists) in seven games. Minard also tied for the team lead with two game-winning goals and a plus nine rating before joining Pittsburgh.

Pesonen, 26, made his NHL debut with Pittsburgh November 1 against the St. Louis Blues. At the time of his recall, the 5-11, 180-pound forward skated in seven games for the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins, ranking third on the team with nine points (two goals, seven assists) and tying for the club lead with a plus nine rating. Pesonen skated in three preseason games with the Pittsburgh Penguins, registering two points (one goal, one assist).

Minard and Pesonen will join the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins today in Houston for a match-up against the Aeros.

http://pod08.prospero.com/n/blogs/bl...ag=KDKA_Sports
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 05, 2008 at 15:18 »

Some experiment, Pesonen skated all of what 5 minutes with the 4th line? Hell, Sid wouldn't generate anything skating with Zigomanis and Goddard for 5 minutes. If Pesonen ever accomplishes anything in the NHL it's not going to be as a 4th liner. If the Pens need a 4th line player, call up Ryan Stone or Aaron Boogaard, not Pesonen. If he maintains his prodtuction in WB/S and eventually earns a legitimate call-up, he has to be given a look on one of the top 2 lines or calling him up will have been a complete waste.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 05, 2008 at 18:31 »

I'm still sticking with my belief when Pesonen was sent down in the beginning of the season and when he was sent down for the second time today.....

Kid was putting up numbers over in Finland.  Fans saw those numbers when he was signed by the Pens.  Said, "wow, great signing Ray, kid must be good" even though he's not accustomed to North American hockey and has never played a professional game in his life up until four nights ago.  Now we are in this situation.  Like I said before, kid looked so/so in TC/preseason.  Nothing great.  Nothing spectacular.  Good speed, decent hands, couldn't finish.  First thought....Koltsov.  Pens sent him down.

I think it's also worth noting that there were not many teams jumping for this kid's services before the Penguins came along.  It's not as if we were in a contract battle with 4-5 other teams.  I'm not stating he's going to bomb, but I think many in this city thought we were getting the second coming of Jari Kurri.  If he's going to make it on this roster, it's going to take time.  Maybe Shero/Therrien just wanted to see how far he came along since the beginning of the season.  They felt they saw enough and decided he needed more time down in WBS.  So, the Pens sent him down for a second time.

I'm sure if he continue to produce down in WBS and shows he can also carry that talent over to the NHL level, he will be back up here.  Until then, I have no problem with them letting him get use to North American hockey and the different skill level in general.  Until then, I would rather see us look around for a trade that can help us right now with no worries or questions asked.

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whitmer_87
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 06, 2008 at 12:23 »

http://penguins.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=390715
Quote
Projected Lines:
Forwards
Talbot-Crosby-Satan
Dupuis-Malkin-Sykora
Kennedy-Staal-Cooke
Bissonnette-Zigomanis-Godard

Defense
Orpik-Letang
Scuderi-Gill
Sydor-Goligoski

Goalkeeper
Fleury


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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 06, 2008 at 12:34 »

Looks like we are running out of options. 

I love Max and I do not feel he's a horrible option for LW on line one, but I do not feel he's the answer.  At least he's capable of finding the back of the net from time to time.  He hustles night in and night out.  Satan being put back on the first line (again) is not exactly a shocker.  Pens put up the money to bring him here and he's considered 'the man' to help cushion the Hossa departure, so they feel 'let's try it again'.  Hopefully unlike the first time around, he takes advantage of the second opportunity.

IMO, Dupuis on the second is not going to be any different than Dupuis on the first.  If you can't finish, you can't finish.  It doesn't matter if it's Malkin or Sid setting you up in front of the net.

Hell, maybe these lines work out and we start winning a few games, I still feel we need a legitimate goal scorer to play on Sid's LW.  We need more production from the the first two lines if we want to go deep in the playoffs. 
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Merman1983
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 06, 2008 at 14:22 »

I'm also fine with line #1. Max seems to be the best option out there with Sid. Seems like they have chemistry out there, plus they both hustle to create opportunities. Hopefully this will create opportunities for Satan out in front in range of his shot.

Dupuis and his stone hands have no place on any scoring line. Those 20 goals he netted in 02-03 must have been 20 of the flukiest bounces off a stick in nhl history. He's a  third liner and a good PKer.

That said, I know we're low on options, but doesn't it make more sense to play Kennedy one line #2 with Malkin and Sykora? Not that he's the next great scoring winger but he seems to have at least some scoring touch and does crash the net. Switching Kennedy for Dupuis obviously doesn't solve all of our problems but it seems like a better skill allocation to me.

This deadline or offseason, we are going to see a move for a top wing for Sid. It's inevitable. Whether it's a FA signing, deadline deal, whatever. I'll give Shero a pass this year because of all of the Hossa nonsense this FA period, but I think he, and the rest of the organization knows what it's going to take to get this team over the hump.
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whitmer_87
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 06, 2008 at 14:36 »

Looks like we are running out of options. 

I love Max and I do not feel he's a horrible option for LW on line one, but I do not feel he's the answer.  At least he's capable of finding the back of the net from time to time.  He hustles night in and night out.  Satan being put back on the first line (again) is not exactly a shocker.  Pens put up the money to bring him here and he's considered 'the man' to help cushion the Hossa departure, so they feel 'let's try it again'.  Hopefully unlike the first time around, he takes advantage of the second opportunity.

IMO, Dupuis on the second is not going to be any different than Dupuis on the first.  If you can't finish, you can't finish.  It doesn't matter if it's Malkin or Sid setting you up in front of the net.

Hell, maybe these lines work out and we start winning a few games, I still feel we need a legitimate goal scorer to play on Sid's LW.  We need more production from the the first two lines if we want to go deep in the playoffs. 

All things considered I really like that Max is getting a shot on the first line. I think most of us agree that Satan isn't the answer to our offensive woes. I'll say it again, I don't mind seeing him out there on the PP because positioning is everything on the PP, and he's really good at that. However, I think he should be the third line winger. I think he can be a solid winger on that line.

As we talked about before, I think we have to make a move in order to find an adequate winger. I agree with you on Cheechoo, I think he could be a solid signing. We'll see how things unfold, hopefully we can be competitive and win some games in the mean time.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 07, 2008 at 00:39 »

Pens looked good tonight! Satan played well on the first line, Sid got a lot of chances. It's just a matter of time before he starts burying it in the back of the net.

Really gotta work on playing with the lead, this is getting kind of ridiculous. But a wins and win, and at least our offense didn't look like shit.
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PghSteel-43
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 07, 2008 at 17:41 »

They looked great last night for 40 minutes of hockey.  Talbot makes that first line click.  It's good to see him get a shot and take advantage of the opportunity.  Satan's first goal was unbelievable.  Hopefully he can keep it up.

It's been said time and time again, but this team struggles when they have a lead.  Even Fleury played a shitty third period.  From what I heard, Therrien flew off the handle after the game behind closed doors.  The guy has to say/do something.

I thought Cooke played a great game.  Throwing his body around and agitating the hell out of the Oilers and ended up giving up a 5 on 3 PP advantage.  Jarkko who?  It's just a shame this team absolutely sucks when we have a 5 on 3 PP.  We pass, pass, pass and never shoot.  At this point, I would rather see this team on a 5 on 4. 

It was also nice to see Godard beat the living shit out of a guy who is 6'5" 250.  Georges who?
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