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Author Topic: What gives?  (Read 3397 times)
rockafella
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« on: Dec 21, 2008 at 15:40 »

I've been watching the Steelers for years, and I'm going to pull my hair out if I see Ben hold on to the football one more time.  He refuses to simply throw it away, and instead likes to take sacks for negative yards or just fumble it completely.  I'm going to take heat for this but someone has to say it.  Roethlisberger is ruining the Steelers offense!  There is way too much offensive talent on this football team to be struggling with scoring points EVERY SINGLE week!!  Every top tier team the Steelers have played against they've lost to.  (Colts, Giants, Eagles and now Titans)  And in each of these games Roethlsiberger has lost the game by either holding on to the football too long, or throwing interceptions.  One of these four teams, not to leave out the Panthers, is the favorite to win the Super Bowl this year.  The lack of a solid run game for the Steelers will only expose him further.  Now I admit the guy is pretty clutch when it comes to driving the team down the field at the end of a game, but how long can the Steelers continue to rely on 2nd half comebacks due to scoreless or 3 point first halves from turnovers on the offensive end in the fist half of ball games.  The Steelers will go fairly far in the playoffs this year b/c they're simply a good team with a great defense, but turnovers from the QB will do them in once they face a team like the Titans or Colts.  Leftwich needs to start, but it's a pitty we won't see that happen.  They'd be unstoppable with a QB that could take care of the football and throw down field. 
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 21, 2008 at 16:23 »

Ben was bad today, no doubt.  But his OL isn't helping the situation.  He's gonna have to learn to throw it away, though, no doubt.  Sometimes there's something to be had by extending the play and sometimes there isn't.  Hopefully he'll learn the difference.  If there were just the hint of a running game this season then I'm sure the offense would look completely different.  And don't forget, the Steelers need to Fire Bruce Arians!

But there's no way that Lefty should be playing unless Ben is too hurt to go.
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 21, 2008 at 16:38 »

Does anyone see the correlation between a poor running game and the poor passing attack when we play good teams? It all comes down to our pitiful offensive line. This unit was bad today in every aspect of the game. Jason Jones, a ROOKIE defensive tackle, totally schooled Kemo and Hartwig for 3.5 sacks today. That is unacceptable! I can't imagine what this game would have looked like if Haynesworth and Vanden Bosch were in uniform. You can't tell me that Roethlisberger and Parker just suddenly forgot how to play football. This line sucks, has sucked and will suck! The fact that the front office has ignored the problem for the past several off-seasons is simply baffling.
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 21, 2008 at 20:27 »

Leftwich looked good in the second half of that one game but no way in hell should he start over Big Ben...Remember, he just secured more wins than any QB EVER at his age.  Everyone has a bad game, we had records waiting on this game that are hard to break so give them a break.  I look at it as a perfect wake up call right before the playoffs...they need to play tough and now they know it.   Last quarter heroics only last so long.  No way i'd have Leftwich running this shit.  didn't you see Ben scramble and juke out that DB and dive for the first down???  that's what I'm talking about.


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rockafella
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 21, 2008 at 22:42 »

He only scored more wins b/c of the team he's had.  The Steelers had a remarkable team with an incredible power running game in '05.  Anyone could have been the quarterback on that team and still have won the title.  Not much was asked of him.  And this is not just one bad game or I would be mentioning it.  I only hope they can deal with the problem.  Low turnover ratio they'll be fine.   
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bamf16
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 22, 2008 at 07:25 »

Anyone could have been the quarterback on that team and still have won the title.  Not much was asked of him. 



Which of the NFL Countdown analysts are you?  I keep hearing that from people who try to diminish Ben as a QB.  Your argument loses all credibility when watching the playoff games against the Bengals, Colts, and Broncos.  Awhile back I posted the rushing stats of those games, and it wasn't pretty.  A whole hell of a lot was asked of Ben at times in that season.  The 2004 team was the much better rushing team.
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 22, 2008 at 12:12 »

Yes.  Clearly he's not the answer.

I mean, if the team wins, it's because of the guys around him.  If they lose, it's all on him.

Please, bring back Tommy Gun or Krodell Stuard.  After all, they won many Championships with their remarkable teams and power running games.  You know, like the 8-8 '03 team?  The one that Ben took over in '04 with which he set a record or two?
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 22, 2008 at 13:59 »

ROFFELSPUKE IS OVER_RATTED AND ANYONE WHOSE IS NOT A STILLERS HOMER KNOWS IT...  HE WAS DARFTED BEHIND ELLI MANGING AND PHILRIP RIVELS, AND BE HONESS... THEIR BETTER THAN ROFFELSPUKE... HE ROTE THE COATTALES OF THE SUPPER BLOW TEAM, AND NOW THAT TEAM AINT SO GOOD NO MORE... WHOPPSIE DAISY, SUDDENLY NAITHER IS ROTTENSBLARFER.... HMMM>>> CONCIDENSE?!?!? <<<  UMM, I DON"T THINK SO...

OH BUT ALL YOU BUTT LOVERS HAVE TO STICK UP LIKE LITTEL JAILHOSS BITCHES FOR BEN BECUZ IT ALL THE FALT OF THE OFFENSE LINE, OR OF FAT "WILY" PRAKER, OR NAT WASHINGSTONE HAD A DROP, ECT., ECT, EVER WEEK IT A NEW EXCUSS WITH YOU GUYS, JEESH... MOST TTE TIME BEN IS RUNNING AROUND IN THE POCKITS LIKE A MONKEY WITH A TICK ON ITS ASS, HE DON'T KNOW WHO TO THROW TO, ARYAN IS PROBALLY ON THE SIDELINE YELLING WHO HE'S SPOSE TO THROW THE BALL TOO...  BEN IS A RETORT.  IT WAS A MISTEAK DARFTING THIS A$$H@LE, AND IT WAS A MISTEAK GIVING HIM A BIG ESTENSION, AND IT A MISTEAK LETTING HIM KEEP HIS JOB WHEN CHRALIE BATSCH IS READY AND ABLE TO START FOR US...  OR EVEN DONALD DIXON, HELL ANYTHING WOULD BE BETTER THAN BEN BARFENSHITSANDPUKESEN BERGERERS...
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 01, 2009 at 23:53 »

Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?  Ben had a good rookie year b/c he simply wasn't turning the ball over.  The same was said of Kordell Stewart in that when he didn't have too many turnovers the Steelers would win ball games.  Let's just challenge your theory for a moment.  Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!  Now if it wasn't because of the losses to the roster of the great team that they had the year before (Jerome Bettis, Mike Logan, Randle El, Duce Staley, Joey Porter just to name a few!), then why did they miss the playoffs only 1 year after winning the Super Bowl?  That's laughable!  OBVIOUSLY it had nothing to do with Roethlisberger's influence on the game!  They just didn't have the same supporting cast.  Being a Steelers fan myself, I completely understand your desire to protect the on field reputation of a Steelers quarterback.  But call it for what it is!  And now Ben is coming off his 3rd concussion in 3 years, including the motorcycle debacle.  Considering all of this, who knows how he's going to play in this years playoffs?  All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 08:45 »

Was 2007 really 3 or 4 years ago?

Did Ben not drive the field to win the game against the vaunted Ravens D?

Duce Staley was a big loss?

 :huh:
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 09:10 »

Duce Staley was a big loss?

 :huh:

The Steelers haven't had a workout suit model since Staley left.  That's tough to replace, that man could wear him some saggy grey.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 09:31 »

Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?  Ben had a good rookie year b/c he simply wasn't turning the ball over.  The same was said of Kordell Stewart in that when he didn't have too many turnovers the Steelers would win ball games.  Let's just challenge your theory for a moment.  Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!  Now if it wasn't because of the losses to the roster of the great team that they had the year before (Jerome Bettis, Mike Logan, Randle El, Duce Staley, Joey Porter just to name a few!), then why did they miss the playoffs only 1 year after winning the Super Bowl?  That's laughable!  OBVIOUSLY it had nothing to do with Roethlisberger's influence on the game!  They just didn't have the same supporting cast.  Being a Steelers fan myself, I completely understand your desire to protect the on field reputation of a Steelers quarterback.  But call it for what it is!  And now Ben is coming off his 3rd concussion in 3 years, including the motorcycle debacle.  Considering all of this, who knows how he's going to play in this years playoffs?  All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.




Is this guy serious?
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 10:04 »

Quote
Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?


Im pretty sure you said that ANY QB could've taken the steelers to the title back in '05.  Hence the Ben reference from 4 years ago.  But i will bet you couldnt name one past steeler QB pre-Ben or Post bradshaw, that could of done the same thing Ben did on that masterful run.

Quote
Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!
 

Im sure the supporting cast from last year was the very same the year before and Ben sort of had a banner  year breaking the team record for TDs at least last year.  You could of had a valid point if you came up with any other reasons than Mike Logan and Duce Staley?  come on man!

Quote
All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.

Yes that i true, but also look at the teams he's had success against.  Browns, Skins and an eagles team that had called off the dogs.

Please keep your casual fan observations to yourself or at least to the boards of the world wide sports network
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:02 »

Again, the OL? 

David Carr (2002).....76 (NFL record)
Matt Cassell............47
Ben Roethlisberger....46
...
Matt Ryan...............17
Peyton Manning........14
Drew Brees..............13
Jay Cutler............... .11
Kerry Collins.............. 8

While Ben isn't breaking David Carr's record, he's getting clanged.  When you are allowing ~3 sacks per game, as opposed to ~1 (or less) per, that's a big issue.  Any coincidence that Ryan, Manning, Brees, Cutler and Collins are having such great years?  Same could be said of Cassell, whose OL is better than ours, and who has Moss and Welker as weapons; his sack numbers seems to be the product of dithering in the pocket too long.  You could say Ben does that as well, but given the gaudy offensive stats Brady put up last year, I think it's safe to say he's got a bit more weaponry.

BFL has 3 sacks in only 36 attempts.  On a sack per attempt basis, that puts Ben and Byron in about the same range.  League-worst sacks per attempts:

Ryan Fitzpatrick (Bengals).....0.102
Ben.................. .................0.09 8
Gus Frerotte............. ..........0.096
Matt Cassell.............. .........0.091
Marc Bulger............... .........0.086
Lefty................ .................0.08 3

Here again, you see very, very bad OLs -- the Bengals OL used to be very solid, and now is utter shit; same goes for the Rams -- and a couple of QBs who dither or are just immobile in the pocket.  Frerotte is what, 37?  I don't know that he was ever been noted as a particularly mobile QB.  But anyway, subjective evals aside, you'd expect that if our OL were under-rated and Ben is responsible for that atrocious sack number, then maybe BFL would have a substantially lower sack rate.  Granted, 36 attempts is a very low statistical base, but consider that given more attempts Lefty could actually wind up with a higher rate of sacks per attempt.

In any event, I don't think that when our QB is getting sacked like he's behind the Bengals or Rams line (and Garrard behind a ravaged OL has 42; Bulger has 38), you have a tough sell telling me it's the QB's fault. 

Not when Willie Colon gets beat off the edge like a fat, short-armed sloth.  Not when Kemo allows sacks right up the fucking gut like he did against the Browns where he literally blocked NO ONE, standing in space as a guy went right by, like he's got Oscar fucking Meyer bologna for brains.  Not when our LT, whether it is Smith or Starks, cannot handle edge speed and look like dancing hippos.  (You can defend Starks at LT all you want, but I think we're settling for "just OK" in comparison to "flat out bad" that we've seen too much at the spot.)  And half the time, the guys who do play well (Hartwig and Stapleton) seem to be confused on assignments, as you see EVERY damned time we play any decent defense that knows how to blitz.  Our blocking schemes find a way for 4 rushers to beat 5 blockers, with 2 guys standing around jerking the fuck off.  Two years into the new offense, and Arians looks like an arrogant cunt who can't call a fucking game any better than a precocious 10 year old, and I still have no idea what the fuck old man Zeirlein is doing, aside from hoping to God Kevin Colbert actually does his job and either brings in some new OL talent by free agency (not effin likely) or by the draft (haven't seen it lately, kids).

Hey, let's see if I'm just making this shit up!

Here's the last TEN Steelers drafts.  That should give you an idea of the short shrift we've given to the OL. 

2008 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 23 Rashard Mendenhall  RB Illinois
2 53 Limas Sweed  WR Texas
3 88 Bruce Davis  DE UCLA
4 130 Tony Hills  T Texas
5 156 Dennis Dixon  QB Oregon
6 188 Mike Humpal  OLB Iowa
6 194 Ryan Mundy  FS West Virginia

2007 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Lawrence Timmons  LB Florida State
2 46 LaMarr Woodley  LB Michigan
3 77 Matt Spaeth  TE Minnesota
4 112 Daniel Sepulveda  P Baylor
4 132 Ryan McBean  DE Oklahoma State
5 156 Cameron Stephenson  G Rutgers
5 170 William Gay  CB Louisville
7 227 Dallas Baker  WR Florida
 
2006 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 25 Santonio Holmes  WR Ohio State
3 83 Anthony Smith  DB Syracuse
3 95 Willie Reid  WR Florida State
4 131 Willie Colon  T Hofstra
4 133 Orien Harris  DT Miami (Fla.)
5 164 Omar Jacobs  QB Bowling Green State
5 167 Charles Davis  TE Purdue
6 201 Marvin Philip  C California
7 240 Cedric Humes  RB Virginia Tech

2005 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Heath Miller  TE Virginia
2 62 Bryant McFadden  DB Florida State
3 93 Trai Essex  T Northwestern
4 131 Fred Gibson  WR Georgia
5 166 Rian Wallace  LB Temple
6 204 Chris Kemoeatu  G Utah
7 228 Shaun Nua  DE Brigham Young
7 244 Noah Herron  RB Northwestern

2004 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Ben Roethlisberger  QB Miami (Ohio)
2 38 Ricardo Colclough  CB Tusculum
3 75 Max Starks  T Florida
5 145 Nathaniel Adibi  DE Virginia Tech
6 177 Bo Lacy  T Arkansas
6 194 Matt Kranchick  TE Penn State
6 197 Drew Caylor  C Stanford
7 212 Eric Taylor  DT Memphis

2003 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 16 Troy Polamalu  DB USC
2 59 Alonzo Jackson  LB Florida State
4 125 Ike Taylor  CB Louisiana-Lafayette
5 163 Brian St. Pierre  QB Boston College
7 242 J.T. Wall  -- Georgia

2002 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Kendall Simmons  G Auburn
2 62 Antwaan Randle El  WR Indiana
3 94 Chris Hope  DB Florida State
4 128 Larry Foote  ILB Michigan
5 166 Verron Haynes  RB Georgia
6 202 Lee Mays  WR Texas-El Paso
7 212 LaVar Glover  CB Cincinnati
7 242 Brett Keisel  DE Brigham Young

2001 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Casey Hampton  NT Texas
2 39 Kendrell Bell  ILB Georgia
4 111 Mathias Nkwenti  T Temple
5 146 Chukky Okobi  C Purdue
6 181 Rodney Bailey  DE Ohio State
6 182 Roger Knight  LB Wisconsin
7 218 Chris Taylor  -- Texas A&M

2000 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 8 Plaxico Burress  WR Michigan State
2 38 Marvel Smith  T Arizona State
3 72 Kendrick Clancy  NT Mississippi
3 77 Hank Poteat  CB Pittsburgh
4 103 Danny Farmer  WR UCLA
5 137 Clark Haggans  LB Colorado State
5 163 Tee Martin  QB Tennessee
6 173 Chris Combs  DE Duke
6 204 Jason Gavadza  TE Kent State

1999 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 13 Troy Edwards  WR Louisiana Tech
2 59 Scott Shields  DB Weber State
3 73 Joey Porter  LB Colorado State
3 74 Kris Farris  T UCLA
3 95 Amos Zereoue  RB West Virginia
4 109 Aaron Smith  DE Northern Colorado
5 136 Jerame Tuman  TE Michigan
5 166 Malcolm Johnson  WR Notre Dame
7 214 Antonio Dingle  DT Virginia
7 219 Chad Kelsay  LB Nebraska
7 228 Kris Brown  K Nebraska

SIX YEARS since we took any OL in either of the first two rounds.  TWO guys in TEN YEARS in those rounds, and Smith is at about the end of his career, and Simmons was never the same after his diabetes.  What else did we get in the past decade's "haul?"

Discussing Farris isn't even worth the time it takes to make a Jamaine Stephens joke.

Marvel was a solid pick, but he hasn't been even close to Por Bowl caliber on the blind side for years.  Too damned many injuries.

Nkwenti and Okobi were strictly backups.

Simmons has never been as dominant as he was his rookie season.

Caylor and Lacy didn't make the cut.  "Bo Lacy" is another good in-joke, kids, when you want to make fun of Colbert.  Sure, he was a sixth rounder, but you know what?  We would have been better off just saying we'd rather not pick anyone at all.

Starks has had sporadic playing time, and has done about as well as you might hope of a third rounder; the draft history is full of R3 OTs who have played far better, and many that have played far worse.  He got beat out by Colon at RT, though, and given that $7 million tag, both of which boggle the mind.

Kemo and Trai.  Frankly, Kemo has played like a backup.  Trai has been a pretty competent backup, but using a R3 on a guy we could have gotten in R5 is idiotic.

Marv Phillip, another in the long line of late-round center "drafting on a prayer" misses.  Colon is less than sufferable at RT, and why they don't shift him inside is a mystery that eludes anyone with a pulse.

Cameron Stephenson, another fine day 2 OL "we gots names, and we gots a dartboard" style miss.

Tony Hills, Inc.  Seemed like an afterthought last year.  Didn't show much in camp, but stuck because, well, we haven't done jack to draft any tackles in forever.  Was injured in college, badly.  Can the gimp stick?  Probably will perform about as well as any other of our R4-7 guys.

We had some success with FA centers in Hartings and now Hartwig, but we also had Sean Mahan.   Oh, and does the name Todd Fordham ring any bells?

Fact is, we've allowed our aging line talent (Smith, Simmons, Faneca) to fade, and we've been miserable at restocking.  I seriously wonder if any team has done a worse job over the past 10 years.  Guys like Key Vincent and Ollie Ross and Wayne Gandy were decent finds who walked, and again, NO replacement.  Average round of all OL selected by the Steelers over the past decade?  4.14.  That means that we really haven't even thought about the OL until day 2 of the draft, by and large.  For a team that understands that you grow great teams by drafting well and developing talent, our OL drafts are a fucking JOKE.

So blame Ben all you want, but the OL that was fairly decent from 2003-05 has been declining precipitously, and I don't care if you had Elway, Marino, Montana, Brady, Manning, or who the fuck ever behind this atrocity, they'd be suffering bastards too.  Argue Leftwich all you want, but I point to the Maddox Effect, and the fact that a full slate of Lefty would find him getting screwed to the ground every bit as much as Ben.  Reads and decision-making?  You can argue that on the basis of Lefty's 36 attempts, but again, if he's in for a full game, I guaran-fucking-TEE you teams will adjust.   Even arguing like some whiny little bitch that Ben hasn't done enough for this team PROVES you haven't been paying attention for more than one season, and you insist on ignoring the ELEPHANT IN THE LIVING ROOM


Quick, let's re-sign Barrett Brooks.  I hear he's available.
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bamf16
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:07 »

 iagree






Wow.
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:34 »

Also, please read this.  Our OL is just... bad.  Only teams worse in Adjust Sack Rate?  Oakland, SF, Detroit.  How'd they do this year?  25th in run blocking.  Worse teams:  KC, Oakland, St. Lou, Seattle, Zona, Detroit, Cinci.  Again, just abysmal.  Vomitational. 
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:08 »

That's a really great breakdown of the OL drafting woes by the Steelers FO Finny. Makes you cringe to look at some of the drafts in the last 10 years, and those drafts coupled with anemic FA dealings have directing led to the current OL situation.

Ben is like 50-24 as a career starter. All he does is win. I personally like winning, but that's just me. The ONLY way he doesn't play, is if all the cobwebs aren't gone. Lefty is a quality backup and I'm glad to have him, buts lets not go to him unless he is absolutely needed.

And to use some of the previous logic in this thread against Ben, the Steelers were 6-10 with Tommy Gun in '03 and were 2-1 to start '04 with pretty much the same team(Duce doesn't count) with Maddox at the helm. What happens AFTER Ben starts playing? Just a 15-1 record and a SB the next year. Once again, call me crazy, but I'll take the guy who wins games.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:18 »

iagree






Wow.

Ditto that.
Don't get Finny riled.  He's utterly unstoppable when riled.


Quote
Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the season following Ben's little incident on the motorcycle?
Don't think that had something to do with it, do ya?
Seriously....who ARE you?


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« Reply #18 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:28 »

Wow, I knew we had been neglecting the Oline for the last few years, but hadn't realized how bad it's been for the last decade.  And it's not like we've been hitting home runs with the other positions with regularity.  Kudos to the team for their first round picks - haven't really missed in nine years, which is well above league average I'm sure.  Other than that, a fairly low percentage of significant contributors.

Two years two late, the Oline must be the single focus for the organization this offseason.  3 guys via FA/1st day draft, minimum.  Real FA acquisitions, not journeymen plugins.
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 01:48 »

Damn dude!  Uhh...... I'm not even talking about the O-line.  We all know it stinks.  But that doesn't explain holding on the the ball and throwing picks instead of throwing it away.  And apparently people did not see the benefit of having a big back like Duce Staley in the rotation for short yardage.  Just because he was hardly used doesn't mean he wasn't valuable.  The Steelers need someone like him right now b/c they're getting nothing on third downs with the run!  Don't get me wrong people.  I know Ben can move the ball down field and score touchdowns.  We've seen him do it time and time again.  This is about taking care of the ball.  And having close games that should have been blow outs because of turnovers on our own side of the field and thus losing by virtually giving the game away.  Example the Colts game.  Don't fool yourselves, the Steelers are winning because of their defense!  Not because they're impressing you offensively!  So far the D has been covering up the poor offensive play.  They've been fairly pathetic on offense this year!  Let's see who disagrees with that.............
I'm waiting.............
Let's just see what happens.  That's all we can do anyway. 
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 08:25 »

so, in other words, you would be quite content going 3 in out every offensive series.  putting the field position into the hands of the all-pro punter we currently have, and placing the game squarely on the shoulders of the defense??  that surely is better than having Ben hold the ball a little longer to actually generate some type of offense right?

why dont they quick kick on 3rd and long from now on saving ourselves from a world of trouble.  that will cut down on the turnovers fo sho and save Ben from taking numerous sacks.  I think you might be on to something.  insane

and I really dont get the Staley correlation either.  that dude was a turd after week 8 of the 2004 season.

I dont think you are an actual steeler fan anyway
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 10:39 »

Quote
So far the D has been covering up the poor offensive play.  They've been fairly pathetic on offense this year!  Let's see who disagrees with that.............
I'm waiting.............

Well, I don't want to keep you waiting long.

You say that "this isn't about the offensive line."  But how can you argue that INTs and sacks are not largely a product of the offensive line?  I would also throw in bad play design and poor play selection, but that's another story and I've addressed that ad nauseum.

Have you ever considered that maybe it just SEEMS like Ben holds the ball to long?  And that he doesn't even have time to throw it away because he's getting bum-rushed from the snap?  IIRC, you have to be outside the pocket to throw the ball away.  How many times has he been cut off from even getting outside the pocket this year? 

Let's also consider the collective impact of 48 sacks, not to mention the countless hits/knockdowns after the throw.  You KNOW, no matter how good or tough he is, that he's thinking about the rush more than ever because of the blows he's taken.  That's just human nature.  I believe that he's done so well at the end of games because he just gets in the zone and forgets about the fact that he's going to get drilled.  He got the crap knocked out of him all the way down the field vs. Balty, but he still got it done.

And by the way, was Troy in at QB when we went down the field vs. SD?  Was James Harrison calling the plays when we went 92 yards on the self-proclaimed "greatest defense of all-time?" 

You put the well-documented oline issues that Finny constructed (BTW, remind me never to get into a debate w/him); and the stupidity that is Bruce Arians together; and it's pretty amazing that we are 12-4.  And yes, that's largely because of the defense, but it's also BR taking us down the field when we have to have it on offense.

One question:  Could the confusion on the OL be partially attributed to Ben calling protections?  Maybe that responsibility needs to be on the center once again.
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 11:11 »

  This is about taking care of the ball.   

No, this is about winning games. Has Ben lost a few games because of poor decisions? Absolutely, and so has Tom Brady. Has Ben won far more games because of good decisions? Um, yeah. How many 4th quarter comebacks does he have in his career, let alone this season? We get it, you think Ben screws up too much and is costing the team games. What's their record this year? I'll agree with you that the D has been carrying the team, but the O, namely Ben, has got it done when it mattered.

No one is going to disagree with calling our offense pathetic, because it is. But its not pathetic just because of #7. In any offensive discussion you MUST look at the OL. Do you seriously think the shitty OL play doesn't affect the QB? Seriously? Do you seriously think the shitty run game doesn't affect the QB? Do you seriously think having a JV OC doesn't affect the QB? Do you seriously think that BL would come in, light it up, not get sacked and the offensive would magically put up 40 game? You are either not watching the games, or not paying enough attention. Ben is not having his best season for sure, but to point the finger at him while bringing up ancient, overused, and ineffectual arguments against him is just not looking at the whole offensive picture and frankly, doesn't do justice to his SB ring, 51 career victories, historic YPA, and determination to win. There are many factors at work here that all affect each other. I bet Ben wouldn't look so bad to you, or hold the ball too long if he wasn't in a fucking pinball machine every fucking play. To dismiss the OL play as cause for some of Ben's poor play is just ignorant.

Of course you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but you not going to convince many people (at least around here) that Ben is the problem. Especially talking about Staley and a big RB. If there isn't a hole to fall through, it doesn't matter how many pounds the RB is. And Russell has been doing pretty good lately(I do think they should think about taking a run a Deuce McCallister)......Anyhoo, its all moot anyway. BR is the QB of the Pittsburgh Steelers and barring injury, will be for quite some time to come. We all hope they are able to score some points in the playoffs and maybe win another SB.
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 21:12 »

Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?  Ben had a good rookie year b/c he simply wasn't turning the ball over.  The same was said of Kordell Stewart in that when he didn't have too many turnovers the Steelers would win ball games.  Let's just challenge your theory for a moment.  Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!  Now if it wasn't because of the losses to the roster of the great team that they had the year before (Jerome Bettis, Mike Logan, Randle El, Duce Staley, Joey Porter just to name a few!), then why did they miss the playoffs only 1 year after winning the Super Bowl?  That's laughable!  OBVIOUSLY it had nothing to do with Roethlisberger's influence on the game!  They just didn't have the same supporting cast.  Being a Steelers fan myself, I completely understand your desire to protect the on field reputation of a Steelers quarterback.  But call it for what it is!  And now Ben is coming off his 3rd concussion in 3 years, including the motorcycle debacle.  Considering all of this, who knows how he's going to play in this years playoffs?  All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.


I thought complete idiots were banned from this board??


Quote
Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!
Quote
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the season following Ben's little incident on the motorcycle?
Don't think that had something to do with it, do ya?
Seriously....who ARE you?




No, the motorcycle accident, emergency appendectomy and bad concussion that year all had absolutely NOTHING to do with us not making the playoffs. Please take your unintelligent, idiotic arguments back to the ESPN messge boards and leave the real discussion to the adults..
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 05, 2009 at 09:47 »

Well, there's two minutes of my life I'd like to have back.
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 05, 2009 at 10:21 »

 iagree

Wow. Just. Wow.
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 05, 2009 at 13:41 »

U GUYZ JUST SHUT UPP!!! JUST SHUT UPPP!!!! BABYWANTSBOTTLEBERGER HOLDZ THE BALLZ WAAAYYY 2 LOUNGE. HES A GAME MANGER!!!!11!!!!>>>>>>DUH, HELLO<<<<<<ANY QB COULD WINN WITH THAT DEEFENCE. DONT BEE HATING ON ME CAUSE IM WRITE!! HAHAHAHAHA. U WILL SEA, U LOOSERS!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HE GOING 2 THREW LOTS AND LOTS OF INTERVENTIONS!!! U NO IM RITE BEEYATCHES!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA........ ..................... ..................... ......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 05, 2009 at 14:30 »

Two things, briefly:

Ben's season, if you're judging by passer rating, has not been that bad outside of Redskins, Giants, Eagles, and Colts.&nbsp; Not sure what the NFCE poison is, but in the AFC he's acquitted himself well.

Also, when considering Ben's performance, aside from bonehead picks (which seem to come up once a game) and recurring injury issues (has his shoulder really healed?), he's faced not only a tough SOS slate, but also some really, really bad weather conditions.&nbsp; The NE and Cleve games stand out as windy and wet, and I know there were others where he was facing rain.&nbsp; When it comes to the QB's grip, snow is much easier than rain and wind.


*Edit:  One more thing.  Seems like this year we've seen a LOT more WR drops.  That Wash game comes to mind, again, among others.  Seriously, is SH off the weed?
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 08:54 »

*Edit:  One more thing.  Seems like this year we've seen a LOT more WR drops.  That Wash game comes to mind, again, among others.  Seriously, is SH off the weed?

As the Mrs. likes to sing whenever he drops one..."I was gonna catch the ball, but I got high..."

I don't see the marked improvement from him this year that I was expecting.  I thought he was gonna make the leap to elite this year...not Fitzgerald, Boldin, Steve Smith, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, etc., elite, but I really believed that second tier elite was doable.  At this point, I still wouldn't classify him as the #1 option.  And, that ain't good with Ward aging (and carrying a monster cap number that needs to be reduced); Nate being a UFA; and Sweed looking about as close to NFL ready as I am.

He needs to get his head outta his ass and put his priorities in order.  If I'm him, I'm gettin' as much game film on a guy like Steve Smith as I can and I'm trying to mimic him as much as possible.
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 08:57 »

Honestly, early in the year, I thought SH was ready to be the man.  I don't think he's been the same since the arrest.
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« Reply #30 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 09:19 »

Yeah, ever since he stopped the wake and bake on Sunday mornings the concentration and relaxation have gone to hell.

In all honesty he seems to be the type of guy who is going to have a monster contract year (next year?), bolt via FA, and never live up to the contract.
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« Reply #31 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 09:35 »



and Sweed looking about as close to NFL ready as I am.



LOL - Ain't it the truth though.
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« Reply #32 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 10:15 »

Granted, Ben's not playing as well this year. That 20-point passer rating drop may have something to do with more significant injuries (shoulder, notably), drops (I've seen a LOT more this year), playcalling (don't get me started), receivers being out (Miller, Holmes), but whatever the case, Ben's worst outing of 2007 netted a 72.9 PR.

This year, he's had 4 games worse than that: Indy (59.0), NYG (38.5), Eagles (50.6), Skins (15.1). Of note is the fact that 3/4 of those are NFCE teams, whatever the significance; also, 2/4 we were holding significant leads that we pissed away (NYG, Indy).

His PR outside of those 4 games, though, ain't bad: average of two Ravens games, 81.3; two Bengals games, 101.1; two Browns games, 89.0; Cowboys, 80.9; Texans, 147.0; Jags, 100.6; Patriots, 75.2; Chargers, 96.4; and Titans, 86.4. We can point to bad plays in a lot of those games, but that's not a bad spread for a season, having 12/16 games in that range.


If you look at Ben's PR with those 4 worst PR removed, his PR comes to 92.55. That's a shade off last year's performance; fine. I think some fans and writers want to goat Ben, whereas I'm only willing to go so far as to critique certain individual plays. You expose Leftwich to 16 games of those same factors, and I promise you he wouldn't do as well.

As for playing Leftwich if Ben struggles on Sunday, well, let's just see how things go. As Wex mentions, we didn't have Miller or McFadden, and this time the Bolts are without LT. Weigh that against Ben's hoped-for post-concussion play.
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« Reply #33 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 10:32 »



and Sweed looking about as close to NFL ready as I am.



LOL - Ain't it the truth though.

The young Mr. Sweed has 6 catches for 64 yards this year. He also got was flagged 3 times and fumbled. Not so great of a rookie season. Nate as the #3 got 40 grabs. Thats a pretty steep dropoff between #3 and #4 receivers. Of course, the Steelers rarely go with 4 WR's, even when they spread it out. It will be interesting to see if the FO thinks Limas can step up to #3, making Nate expendable, or if Nate gets an offer to stick around. And for those of you wondering about Dallas Baker, he managed 1 reception for 6 yards. With Holmes having a stoned(or un-stoned as the case may be) year, there isn't much depth behind Hines. There is potential, but that isn't exactly comforting. If Nate goes, Sweed is going to have to make a huge improvement, which I'm not so sure he is capable of.
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« Reply #34 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 10:43 »

Keep in mind that Sweed is a rookie, which is always tough for a WR, and is around the 8th option behind Ward, Holmes, Heat, Nate, Moore, Parker, and Spaeth.   If we consistently ran 4-5 WRs out there, when we'd have a better idea of his ability.  But in this offense, he simply doesn't see the field.

Consider this his redshirt year.  Give him 2 more before we can make a decision.
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« Reply #35 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 10:54 »

LAME_ASS SWEET IS A BUSSED!!!!!!!

RATARD MANDYBALL IS A BUSSED!!!!!!!!!!

WFT?~!?!?!?!/

WHY CANT" WE NEVER DARFT NO ONE GOOD?!?!?!?!
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« Reply #36 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 11:53 »

WHY CANT" WE NEVER DARFT NO ONE GOOD?!?!?!?!

>>>>>HELLOOO<<<<<<  THE RAVINES DARFTED NO ONE GOOD IN THE FURST ROUNDS11!!!!  GET IT?Huh?

HE WUZZINT AFLAILABLE!!!!
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« Reply #37 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 13:18 »

If Nate goes, Sweed is going to have to make a huge improvement, which I'm not so sure he is capable of.

IMO, if Nate goes, Pittsburgh will have to bring in a mid-tier FA WR.  One that can return punts would be a nice plus.

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« Reply #38 on: Jan 06, 2009 at 13:37 »

If Nate goes, Sweed is going to have to make a huge improvement, which I'm not so sure he is capable of.

IMO, if Nate goes, Pittsburgh will have to bring in a mid-tier FA WR.  One that can return punts would be a nice plus.



SING TURRELL ONEWS!!!!!!!111
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« Reply #39 on: Jan 07, 2009 at 20:33 »

I hated the Sweed draft pick only slightly less than the Tony Hills pick.
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« Reply #40 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 08:39 »

I hated the Sweed draft pick only slightly less than the Tony Hills pick.

I didn't like the Hills pick at all either, but I'll admit that I was kinda happy about the Sweed pick.  At the time, I thought it was a steal.  He was so solid at Texas.  *shrug*  Guess the experts got that one right.  There's a reason he slipped out of the first round...
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« Reply #41 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 09:12 »

I hated the Sweed draft pick only slightly less than the Tony Hills pick.

I didn't like the Hills pick at all either, but I'll admit that I was kinda happy about the Sweed pick.  At the time, I thought it was a steal.  He was so solid at Texas.  *shrug*  Guess the experts got that one right.  There's a reason he slipped out of the first round...

Yeah, it's called a permanently damaged hand.  You really don't want to be drafting WRs with bum hands.  Or OLs with bum legs for that matter. 

This year Colbert prolly is targeting a RB with two blown knees.
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« Reply #42 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 09:52 »

I hated the Sweed draft pick only slightly less than the Tony Hills pick.

I didn't like the Hills pick at all either, but I'll admit that I was kinda happy about the Sweed pick.  At the time, I thought it was a steal.  He was so solid at Texas.  *shrug*  Guess the experts got that one right.  There's a reason he slipped out of the first round...

Yeah, it's called a permanently damaged hand.  You really don't want to be drafting WRs with bum hands.  Or OLs with bum legs for that matter. 

This year Colbert prolly is targeting a RB with two blown knees.

Injuries heal.  Maybe you wind up with a steal.  You draft a WR with the understanding that any good play his rookie year is icing.  I hold out hope for Sweed.

Hills seemed to have more serious injuries.  I don't know what the fuck to think there.  Haven't seen much of anything to base an opinion on.  Next great draft pick in the proud heritage of Mathias Nkwenti and Bo Lacy? 
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« Reply #43 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 10:02 »

I hated the Sweed draft pick only slightly less than the Tony Hills pick.

I didn't like the Hills pick at all either, but I'll admit that I was kinda happy about the Sweed pick.  At the time, I thought it was a steal.  He was so solid at Texas.  *shrug*  Guess the experts got that one right.  There's a reason he slipped out of the first round...

Yeah, it's called a permanently damaged hand.  You really don't want to be drafting WRs with bum hands.  Or OLs with bum legs for that matter. 

This year Colbert prolly is targeting a RB with two blown knees.

Injuries heal.  Maybe you wind up with a steal.  You draft a WR with the understanding that any good play his rookie year is icing.  I hold out hope for Sweed.

Hills seemed to have more serious injuries.  I don't know what the fuck to think there.  Haven't seen much of anything to base an opinion on.  Next great draft pick in the proud heritage of Mathias Nkwenti and Bo Lacy? 

Yeah yeah I know it takes wr's a while to develop.  Maybe Sweed will pan out, I'm just sick of Colbert's project picks. 
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« Reply #44 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 10:09 »

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Yeah yeah I know it takes wr's a while to develop.  Maybe Sweed will pan out, I'm just sick of Colbert's project picks. 

Agreed...think we can package Colbert and Arians for a 7th rounder?  They're worth at least as much as Mahan!

Maybe a couple of undrafted free agents?
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« Reply #45 on: Jan 08, 2009 at 10:37 »

>>>>>>>>>>HELLO<<<<<<<<<< SING JOOEY HORNY!!!!11!!! LAMEASS TWEED AINT GOING 2 B NUTHIN!! CAN U SAY BUSTE??!!??SIZE 44DDD!!HAHAHA. IF THE STEALERS DARFTED LIKE THE BALTITMORE THEY WOULD CHAMPS!!! NOT THE CHUMPANZEE'S THEY GOT NOWE!!!HAHAHAHA..TONY HILLZ?Huh? WHO DA HELL IZ DAT???!!!??? GUY CANT WALK, OR PLAYS FOOTBALLERS!!! WHAT A JOKE. JOOEY HORNY IS A PERUVIAN PLAYA AND HE IS GOODE. IDOITS!!!HAHAHAHA
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