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Author Topic: What gives?  (Read 3760 times)
jonzr
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 09:10 »

Duce Staley was a big loss?

 :huh:

The Steelers haven't had a workout suit model since Staley left.  That's tough to replace, that man could wear him some saggy grey.
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bamf16
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 09:31 »

Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?  Ben had a good rookie year b/c he simply wasn't turning the ball over.  The same was said of Kordell Stewart in that when he didn't have too many turnovers the Steelers would win ball games.  Let's just challenge your theory for a moment.  Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!  Now if it wasn't because of the losses to the roster of the great team that they had the year before (Jerome Bettis, Mike Logan, Randle El, Duce Staley, Joey Porter just to name a few!), then why did they miss the playoffs only 1 year after winning the Super Bowl?  That's laughable!  OBVIOUSLY it had nothing to do with Roethlisberger's influence on the game!  They just didn't have the same supporting cast.  Being a Steelers fan myself, I completely understand your desire to protect the on field reputation of a Steelers quarterback.  But call it for what it is!  And now Ben is coming off his 3rd concussion in 3 years, including the motorcycle debacle.  Considering all of this, who knows how he's going to play in this years playoffs?  All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.




Is this guy serious?
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JackSplat
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 10:04 »

Quote
Think about it bamf16.  If you have to go back 3 or 4 years ago to point out something good that Ben did, don't you think something is wrong?


Im pretty sure you said that ANY QB could've taken the steelers to the title back in '05.  Hence the Ben reference from 4 years ago.  But i will bet you couldnt name one past steeler QB pre-Ben or Post bradshaw, that could of done the same thing Ben did on that masterful run.

Quote
Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!
 

Im sure the supporting cast from last year was the very same the year before and Ben sort of had a banner  year breaking the team record for TDs at least last year.  You could of had a valid point if you came up with any other reasons than Mike Logan and Duce Staley?  come on man!

Quote
All I know is every time Lefty comes in the game good things happen, and the ball easily moves down field.

Yes that i true, but also look at the teams he's had success against.  Browns, Skins and an eagles team that had called off the dogs.

Please keep your casual fan observations to yourself or at least to the boards of the world wide sports network
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:02 »

Again, the OL? 

David Carr (2002).....76 (NFL record)
Matt Cassell............47
Ben Roethlisberger....46
...
Matt Ryan...............17
Peyton Manning........14
Drew Brees..............13
Jay Cutler............... .11
Kerry Collins.............. 8

While Ben isn't breaking David Carr's record, he's getting clanged.  When you are allowing ~3 sacks per game, as opposed to ~1 (or less) per, that's a big issue.  Any coincidence that Ryan, Manning, Brees, Cutler and Collins are having such great years?  Same could be said of Cassell, whose OL is better than ours, and who has Moss and Welker as weapons; his sack numbers seems to be the product of dithering in the pocket too long.  You could say Ben does that as well, but given the gaudy offensive stats Brady put up last year, I think it's safe to say he's got a bit more weaponry.

BFL has 3 sacks in only 36 attempts.  On a sack per attempt basis, that puts Ben and Byron in about the same range.  League-worst sacks per attempts:

Ryan Fitzpatrick (Bengals).....0.102
Ben.................. .................0.09 8
Gus Frerotte............. ..........0.096
Matt Cassell.............. .........0.091
Marc Bulger............... .........0.086
Lefty................ .................0.08 3

Here again, you see very, very bad OLs -- the Bengals OL used to be very solid, and now is utter shit; same goes for the Rams -- and a couple of QBs who dither or are just immobile in the pocket.  Frerotte is what, 37?  I don't know that he was ever been noted as a particularly mobile QB.  But anyway, subjective evals aside, you'd expect that if our OL were under-rated and Ben is responsible for that atrocious sack number, then maybe BFL would have a substantially lower sack rate.  Granted, 36 attempts is a very low statistical base, but consider that given more attempts Lefty could actually wind up with a higher rate of sacks per attempt.

In any event, I don't think that when our QB is getting sacked like he's behind the Bengals or Rams line (and Garrard behind a ravaged OL has 42; Bulger has 38), you have a tough sell telling me it's the QB's fault. 

Not when Willie Colon gets beat off the edge like a fat, short-armed sloth.  Not when Kemo allows sacks right up the fucking gut like he did against the Browns where he literally blocked NO ONE, standing in space as a guy went right by, like he's got Oscar fucking Meyer bologna for brains.  Not when our LT, whether it is Smith or Starks, cannot handle edge speed and look like dancing hippos.  (You can defend Starks at LT all you want, but I think we're settling for "just OK" in comparison to "flat out bad" that we've seen too much at the spot.)  And half the time, the guys who do play well (Hartwig and Stapleton) seem to be confused on assignments, as you see EVERY damned time we play any decent defense that knows how to blitz.  Our blocking schemes find a way for 4 rushers to beat 5 blockers, with 2 guys standing around jerking the fuck off.  Two years into the new offense, and Arians looks like an arrogant cunt who can't call a fucking game any better than a precocious 10 year old, and I still have no idea what the fuck old man Zeirlein is doing, aside from hoping to God Kevin Colbert actually does his job and either brings in some new OL talent by free agency (not effin likely) or by the draft (haven't seen it lately, kids).

Hey, let's see if I'm just making this shit up!

Here's the last TEN Steelers drafts.  That should give you an idea of the short shrift we've given to the OL. 

2008 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 23 Rashard Mendenhall  RB Illinois
2 53 Limas Sweed  WR Texas
3 88 Bruce Davis  DE UCLA
4 130 Tony Hills  T Texas
5 156 Dennis Dixon  QB Oregon
6 188 Mike Humpal  OLB Iowa
6 194 Ryan Mundy  FS West Virginia

2007 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Lawrence Timmons  LB Florida State
2 46 LaMarr Woodley  LB Michigan
3 77 Matt Spaeth  TE Minnesota
4 112 Daniel Sepulveda  P Baylor
4 132 Ryan McBean  DE Oklahoma State
5 156 Cameron Stephenson  G Rutgers
5 170 William Gay  CB Louisville
7 227 Dallas Baker  WR Florida
 
2006 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 25 Santonio Holmes  WR Ohio State
3 83 Anthony Smith  DB Syracuse
3 95 Willie Reid  WR Florida State
4 131 Willie Colon  T Hofstra
4 133 Orien Harris  DT Miami (Fla.)
5 164 Omar Jacobs  QB Bowling Green State
5 167 Charles Davis  TE Purdue
6 201 Marvin Philip  C California
7 240 Cedric Humes  RB Virginia Tech

2005 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Heath Miller  TE Virginia
2 62 Bryant McFadden  DB Florida State
3 93 Trai Essex  T Northwestern
4 131 Fred Gibson  WR Georgia
5 166 Rian Wallace  LB Temple
6 204 Chris Kemoeatu  G Utah
7 228 Shaun Nua  DE Brigham Young
7 244 Noah Herron  RB Northwestern

2004 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Ben Roethlisberger  QB Miami (Ohio)
2 38 Ricardo Colclough  CB Tusculum
3 75 Max Starks  T Florida
5 145 Nathaniel Adibi  DE Virginia Tech
6 177 Bo Lacy  T Arkansas
6 194 Matt Kranchick  TE Penn State
6 197 Drew Caylor  C Stanford
7 212 Eric Taylor  DT Memphis

2003 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 16 Troy Polamalu  DB USC
2 59 Alonzo Jackson  LB Florida State
4 125 Ike Taylor  CB Louisiana-Lafayette
5 163 Brian St. Pierre  QB Boston College
7 242 J.T. Wall  -- Georgia

2002 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Kendall Simmons  G Auburn
2 62 Antwaan Randle El  WR Indiana
3 94 Chris Hope  DB Florida State
4 128 Larry Foote  ILB Michigan
5 166 Verron Haynes  RB Georgia
6 202 Lee Mays  WR Texas-El Paso
7 212 LaVar Glover  CB Cincinnati
7 242 Brett Keisel  DE Brigham Young

2001 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Casey Hampton  NT Texas
2 39 Kendrell Bell  ILB Georgia
4 111 Mathias Nkwenti  T Temple
5 146 Chukky Okobi  C Purdue
6 181 Rodney Bailey  DE Ohio State
6 182 Roger Knight  LB Wisconsin
7 218 Chris Taylor  -- Texas A&M

2000 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 8 Plaxico Burress  WR Michigan State
2 38 Marvel Smith  T Arizona State
3 72 Kendrick Clancy  NT Mississippi
3 77 Hank Poteat  CB Pittsburgh
4 103 Danny Farmer  WR UCLA
5 137 Clark Haggans  LB Colorado State
5 163 Tee Martin  QB Tennessee
6 173 Chris Combs  DE Duke
6 204 Jason Gavadza  TE Kent State

1999 - Pittsburgh Steelers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 13 Troy Edwards  WR Louisiana Tech
2 59 Scott Shields  DB Weber State
3 73 Joey Porter  LB Colorado State
3 74 Kris Farris  T UCLA
3 95 Amos Zereoue  RB West Virginia
4 109 Aaron Smith  DE Northern Colorado
5 136 Jerame Tuman  TE Michigan
5 166 Malcolm Johnson  WR Notre Dame
7 214 Antonio Dingle  DT Virginia
7 219 Chad Kelsay  LB Nebraska
7 228 Kris Brown  K Nebraska

SIX YEARS since we took any OL in either of the first two rounds.  TWO guys in TEN YEARS in those rounds, and Smith is at about the end of his career, and Simmons was never the same after his diabetes.  What else did we get in the past decade's "haul?"

Discussing Farris isn't even worth the time it takes to make a Jamaine Stephens joke.

Marvel was a solid pick, but he hasn't been even close to Por Bowl caliber on the blind side for years.  Too damned many injuries.

Nkwenti and Okobi were strictly backups.

Simmons has never been as dominant as he was his rookie season.

Caylor and Lacy didn't make the cut.  "Bo Lacy" is another good in-joke, kids, when you want to make fun of Colbert.  Sure, he was a sixth rounder, but you know what?  We would have been better off just saying we'd rather not pick anyone at all.

Starks has had sporadic playing time, and has done about as well as you might hope of a third rounder; the draft history is full of R3 OTs who have played far better, and many that have played far worse.  He got beat out by Colon at RT, though, and given that $7 million tag, both of which boggle the mind.

Kemo and Trai.  Frankly, Kemo has played like a backup.  Trai has been a pretty competent backup, but using a R3 on a guy we could have gotten in R5 is idiotic.

Marv Phillip, another in the long line of late-round center "drafting on a prayer" misses.  Colon is less than sufferable at RT, and why they don't shift him inside is a mystery that eludes anyone with a pulse.

Cameron Stephenson, another fine day 2 OL "we gots names, and we gots a dartboard" style miss.

Tony Hills, Inc.  Seemed like an afterthought last year.  Didn't show much in camp, but stuck because, well, we haven't done jack to draft any tackles in forever.  Was injured in college, badly.  Can the gimp stick?  Probably will perform about as well as any other of our R4-7 guys.

We had some success with FA centers in Hartings and now Hartwig, but we also had Sean Mahan.   Oh, and does the name Todd Fordham ring any bells?

Fact is, we've allowed our aging line talent (Smith, Simmons, Faneca) to fade, and we've been miserable at restocking.  I seriously wonder if any team has done a worse job over the past 10 years.  Guys like Key Vincent and Ollie Ross and Wayne Gandy were decent finds who walked, and again, NO replacement.  Average round of all OL selected by the Steelers over the past decade?  4.14.  That means that we really haven't even thought about the OL until day 2 of the draft, by and large.  For a team that understands that you grow great teams by drafting well and developing talent, our OL drafts are a fucking JOKE.

So blame Ben all you want, but the OL that was fairly decent from 2003-05 has been declining precipitously, and I don't care if you had Elway, Marino, Montana, Brady, Manning, or who the fuck ever behind this atrocity, they'd be suffering bastards too.  Argue Leftwich all you want, but I point to the Maddox Effect, and the fact that a full slate of Lefty would find him getting screwed to the ground every bit as much as Ben.  Reads and decision-making?  You can argue that on the basis of Lefty's 36 attempts, but again, if he's in for a full game, I guaran-fucking-TEE you teams will adjust.   Even arguing like some whiny little bitch that Ben hasn't done enough for this team PROVES you haven't been paying attention for more than one season, and you insist on ignoring the ELEPHANT IN THE LIVING ROOM


Quick, let's re-sign Barrett Brooks.  I hear he's available.
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bamf16
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:07 »

 iagree






Wow.
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 11:34 »

Also, please read this.  Our OL is just... bad.  Only teams worse in Adjust Sack Rate?  Oakland, SF, Detroit.  How'd they do this year?  25th in run blocking.  Worse teams:  KC, Oakland, St. Lou, Seattle, Zona, Detroit, Cinci.  Again, just abysmal.  Vomitational. 
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:08 »

That's a really great breakdown of the OL drafting woes by the Steelers FO Finny. Makes you cringe to look at some of the drafts in the last 10 years, and those drafts coupled with anemic FA dealings have directing led to the current OL situation.

Ben is like 50-24 as a career starter. All he does is win. I personally like winning, but that's just me. The ONLY way he doesn't play, is if all the cobwebs aren't gone. Lefty is a quality backup and I'm glad to have him, buts lets not go to him unless he is absolutely needed.

And to use some of the previous logic in this thread against Ben, the Steelers were 6-10 with Tommy Gun in '03 and were 2-1 to start '04 with pretty much the same team(Duce doesn't count) with Maddox at the helm. What happens AFTER Ben starts playing? Just a 15-1 record and a SB the next year. Once again, call me crazy, but I'll take the guy who wins games.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:18 »

iagree






Wow.

Ditto that.
Don't get Finny riled.  He's utterly unstoppable when riled.


Quote
Case in point.....the Steelers won the Super Bowl during the '05-'06 season, and the VERY NEXT year miss the playoffs completely!!!!
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the season following Ben's little incident on the motorcycle?
Don't think that had something to do with it, do ya?
Seriously....who ARE you?


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« Reply #18 on: Jan 02, 2009 at 12:28 »

Wow, I knew we had been neglecting the Oline for the last few years, but hadn't realized how bad it's been for the last decade.  And it's not like we've been hitting home runs with the other positions with regularity.  Kudos to the team for their first round picks - haven't really missed in nine years, which is well above league average I'm sure.  Other than that, a fairly low percentage of significant contributors.

Two years two late, the Oline must be the single focus for the organization this offseason.  3 guys via FA/1st day draft, minimum.  Real FA acquisitions, not journeymen plugins.
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 03, 2009 at 01:48 »

Damn dude!  Uhh...... I'm not even talking about the O-line.  We all know it stinks.  But that doesn't explain holding on the the ball and throwing picks instead of throwing it away.  And apparently people did not see the benefit of having a big back like Duce Staley in the rotation for short yardage.  Just because he was hardly used doesn't mean he wasn't valuable.  The Steelers need someone like him right now b/c they're getting nothing on third downs with the run!  Don't get me wrong people.  I know Ben can move the ball down field and score touchdowns.  We've seen him do it time and time again.  This is about taking care of the ball.  And having close games that should have been blow outs because of turnovers on our own side of the field and thus losing by virtually giving the game away.  Example the Colts game.  Don't fool yourselves, the Steelers are winning because of their defense!  Not because they're impressing you offensively!  So far the D has been covering up the poor offensive play.  They've been fairly pathetic on offense this year!  Let's see who disagrees with that.............
I'm waiting.............
Let's just see what happens.  That's all we can do anyway. 
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