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jasonic
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« on: Dec 21, 2009 at 01:50 »

 clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

glad we won this one with the replay of the super bowl catch on the other side with our future SanAntonio but.......


WHY THE FUCK DID WE ONSIDE KICK WITH 4 MINUTES LEFT DOWN BY 2? 

was this a Tomlin call?  if so I have to question WHAT THE FUCK is he thinking....

reminds me of Tomlins first Playoff against the Jags and going for it over the points with 5 mins left or so....WTF?? 


Punt the ball, stop them, over.....we don't need that miraculous play.  this team drives me insane.



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bamf16
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 06:39 »

You know what, it was the right call.  I was on board with everyone else, asking WTF?!  But after Green Bay got their first first down, I looked around the room and said, "this could end up being the right call."  I was very critical of Tomlin and BA during and after the Oakland game for taking the TD and leaving 1:57 on the clock for the Raiders to drive to win it.  Far too few coaches I think consider the clock as a factor when making decisions.  Tomlin's call in that situation was spot on.  Granted, I think he saw it playing out with GB getting into FG range, us stopping them, and then a FG kick comes with about 90 seconds left.  I don't think the scenario that we saw was what was going on in his head. 

Another factor was GB's kicker the past month has been as ineffective as our secondary.  So you have a situation where their defense can't stop our offense.  Our defense can't stop their offense.  Their kicker sucks.  Our coverage sucks.  There's 4 minutes or so left on the clock.  Why the fuck not try something that if it works, it wins the game?!  I will forever argue that we should have tried the 55 yard field goal in KC for the win in OT.  If you have a chance to make one play that wins the game, why not go for it?

Watching the replay makes me want to ring Ike's neck even more.  There was NO ONE in a white jersey in position to recover that kick, and dipshit Ike adds another item to the list of "shit he can't do this year" by not being able to watch a ball go 10 yards and then recover it.  Which brings me to another point.  Why is our worst set of hands being asked to recover an onside kick?!
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otismalibu
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:02 »

Also, Mr. One Touchback All Season was popping them up and giving the Packers the ball at around the 35 every kickoff. The defense couldn't stop shit, so was it worth 25-30 yards for a shot at keeping the ball. As was mentioned, worst case scenario, the Steelers have a little extra time.

They needed it, seeing how they butchered the KO return.
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:20 »

I agree, it was the right call and said so in the game thread.  Tomlin can't help it if the team can't execute the damn play.  And as previously stated - don't blame him for not wanting to put the game on the defense; we've seen too many times what happens when the defense is asked to seal a game:  they simply cannot do it.
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Big Virgil
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:36 »

Tomlin is calling out the D bigger than life here and one would think they woud become motivated.  But, the likes of Gay, Taylor, Carter and whomever else are too stupid to get the message.
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:43 »

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But, the likes of Gay, Taylor, Carter and whomever else are too stupid to get the message.

Ya can't make chicken soup...

Gay falls down all the time and really can't tackle.
Carter is the king of bad angles and he simply whiffed on the WR when he could have killed him yesterday on that long bomb.
Ike's suffers from Peanut Head (see Pam Oliver) so not much can be expected of him.
Clark's a hard hitter, but apparently the spleen contains all of the body's ball awareness sensors.

And now that Warren is gone, we'll simply go for it on 4th down from here on out.
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leighclay
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:51 »

I'm with everyone else on this.  Didn't like it at first, but it was the right call.
The way the D has been giving up 3rd downs & game winning scores this season, you give GB back the ball short.  Either the D steps up and stops them or they don't.  Either way, you have a chance to get down the field and score.
You give it to them on the other side of the 50, and we don't have that time to get down there.  And we obviously needed every single second.

So.....yeah.  Tomlin knows what's up with this D and he's done with it.
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bamf16
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 08:57 »

Again and again people have asked, "Does Troy mean THAT much to the defense that it's doing this poorly without him?"  The issue isn't Troy's absence as much as it is the ineptitude behind him on the depth chart.  Tyrone Carter isn't even a serviceable, let alone capable NFL safety.  He has no ball skills and no speed.  Watching him get burned on Grant's TD run was as bad as Farrior getting burned in Cleveland on their TD run.  He is incompetant back there, and it pisses me off that they've tried nothing different.  I've gone on record with this prediction before, and I'll do it again...Deshea Townsend should, and I think WILL be our starting Free Safety next season.  He should be back there right now.  At the very least, he'll keep plays in front of him, not take stupid penalties, and can run down a running back if given the angle.  And that by default makes him better than what we have right now.
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leighclay
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 09:29 »

I also think we're seeing the absence of Aaron Smith, and people are forgetting about what he means to the team.

With he & Troy out, that's a lot of talent and a lot of playmaking.

Agree about Deshea.  He played well yesterday, I thought, and should be out there.  The others aren't showing me jack.
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 09:35 »

LeBeau can't bring anything on 3rd and longs, especially critical 4Q 3&L.  But as mentioned, look at the shit he's working with.  Without Aaron Smith, and with Casey Hampton nowhere near as effective as the 98 of old, the line gets no push.  That's where it starts.  Ziggy isn't there yet, but here's hoping he can come around.  Still, need a NT, as Hamp and Hokie are too old and too far declined to get it done dominantly.  Also need another DE for depth, even if Sunny Harris pans.  There are two NTs atop the convo, Mt. Cody and Dan Williams.  Past that, it thins precipitously.  

The OLB starters are fine for now, even with 92's age, but depth is critically horrible.  The ILBs are making stupid mistakes due to youth (Timmons) and age (Farrior).  Farrior's decline is alarming.  Fox is a good enough Larry Foote type player, and we can hope Timmons will become more consistent and dominant.  But again, ILB needs depth and IMO we could draft a starter for the Mack and switch Timmons to Buck.  Think Rolando McClain, e.g., for a dominant tandem.  A couple R3-R4 guys I like are Micah Johnson (KY) and Pat Angerer (Iowa).

But clearly the defensive backfield is a mess.  It's just hideous.  Teams are splitting the middle of this defense like a pistachio.  Ike is great when the rest of the defense is up to par, i.e., when the safeties actually back him up.  When he's rattled, like now, he shows why he's best against a singular type of WR (speed/size, as opposed to crafty/smart route runners).  Put him on Ocho, fine.  Against the wrong WR, he gets eaten.  Willie Gay looked really good in limited exposure the first two years, and that's exactly where he belongs now:  a nickel/dime guy.  I had hoped he would "come around" and be a potential starter, but I've given up on the guy.  We need a top lockdown corner.  Burnett likewise looks like a package guy, and coach hasn't let Keenan Lewis get any field time.  

I actually think Lewis might be better at FS.  Ty Carter is absolute shit, and I've been begging for his replacement for years.  He shows up big in a few games, but usually against the Kyle Ortons of the world -- guys without the downfield arm, or guys who the DL has rattled into dumb mistakes.  He's Johnny-on-the-spot then, but the other 99% of the time, not so fucking much.  Mundy has done a lot of dumb shit and looks to me like less than JAG.  I came to the realization that Ryan Clark is Anthony Smith, plus about 20 IQ points.  Gets burned in cover, goes for the big hit rather than the sure tackle, isn't as stupid and out of place as Smith but is showing how much he relies on 43.  BTW, given the injuries, 43 isn't gonna last forever.  Clearly, CLEARLY, we need two safeties, preferably guys who can rotate to either position.  Not sure if Keenan Lewis has the boom to play SS, so he may be in some weird FS/CB limbo.  A top safety in the first 3 rounds is a must, and another later is likely called for too.

So, NT, CB, FS/SS, ILB in the first 4 rounds, and that doesn't even consider the ongoing OL issues.  Frankly, I'd spend the first three picks on defense, hope for a R4 comp and split offense/defense in R4.  From there on, it's marginal guys anyway.

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leighclay
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 09:45 »

 A couple R3-R4 guys I like are Micah Johnson (KY) and Pat Angerer (Iowa).

Having watched Micah in person for the past 3 years, he's a beast.
And a quality guy.  He would be an asset to the Steelers, and I'd love to see a Kentucky kid in black and gold.
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 10:29 »

In spite of the fact that Finny has transitioned us to a more forward-thinking direction, let me put in my .02 on the past:

It was absolutely, positively the right call to go for the onside at that point.  I was yelling at the announcers for yelling at Tomlin about the call. 

Ask yourself:  If we can't stop Oakland, KC, Cleveland, Chicago, Cincy, or Baltimore in the fourth quarter, what makes you think we're going to stop one of the hottest QBs in the league?  He was absolutely lighting up our secondary, and we had given no indication that we had any chance to stop him.  DL was afraid to blitz him when he was in empty set because he knows we can't cover.  The Packers were going to score.  The only question was:  Could we give ourselves enough time to match them.

3 possible results from the onside, and all of them are good:

1.  We get the ball.  Whose hands would you rather place the game in right now, the offense or the defense?

2.  We don't get the ball, but hold GB to a field goal try.  Their kicker sucks, so we'll take our chances.

3.  They get the ball and score a td, but we have time to drive it for the win.


Tell me, why would any of those be so bad?
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 10:46 »

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Tomlin is calling out the D bigger than life here and one would think they woud become motivated. 

My thoughts exactly.  I don't think you can possibly send a stronger message to your defense than onside kicking in that situation.  May as well rent a plane to fly over the stadium with a banner saying "I DON"T WANT MY DEFENSE ON THE FIELD WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE.  THEY HAVE BLOWN IT EVERY CHANCE THEY GET.  THE SEASON IS IN JEOPARDY AND I TRUST MY SPECIAL TEAMS TO MAKE A PLAY MORE THAN MY D, WHICH IS SAYING SOMETHING BECAUSE SPECIAL TEAMS SUCK TOO.  BUT EITHER WAY I TRUST MY OFFENSE TO BAIL US OUT OF THIS MESS."

OK, that would be a pretty long banner, but you get the idea.
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jasonic
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 11:14 »

sorry guys, I still disagree.  I think regardless you give the Pack a long field to score.  I know our D wasn't doing shit but I still think you give them a chance to stop them in our end of the field.  We're lucky that GB didn't just run the ball and score with a second or two left. 

I do agree with the why have Ike "hands of stone" responsible to grab that ball?  the ball could've run another 5 yards easily before anyone would get to it.  I was livid.  Even Sweed probably would've been able to wait and grab that sucker.
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 11:20 »

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sorry guys, I still disagree.  I think regardless you give the Pack a long field to score.

It's not like we passed on a punt. We weren't going to pin them at the 5 or 10 on a KO. Pretty safe to say they would have had it at the 35 at the very least...unless a flag shows up.

The Packers scored on probably 2 or 3 fewer plays, than if we kick off. That would have cost us the 2MW stoppage, and we only had 1 TO left.

There was so much luck in the final minutes. I thought the Pack would end of kicking a FG with only seconds left. We were actually lucky they scored so early. Not to mention Wallace's drop inside the 5, which may have ended the game right there.
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 11:26 »

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sorry guys, I still disagree.  I think regardless you give the Pack a long field to score.  I know our D wasn't doing shit but I still think you give them a chance to stop them in our end of the field.

I agree that is the percentage play.  I don't think had they kicked away anyone would have been asking afterwards why not an onside kick.  Would have made it easier for him afterwards.  You kick off, you trust your defense, they dont deliver - what can you do?  And I wasn't exactly calling for the onside kick - it surprised me also.

However, Tomlin had seen enough.  As I mentioned in another thread, we've blown a ton of 4th quarter leads.   Would have been eight at that point.  Tomlin's trying to win.  He's trusted his defense over and over and they failed to deliver - not just once, but on a consistent basis.  He's fully aware of the fact that he'd get crushed in the press if it doesn't work.  But he went for it anyway.  He may have flaws, but at least he's willing to make the gutsy call that can be criticized.  Go on 4th down, go for 7 instead of 3, stuff like that.

I like the call, liked it as soon as it happened.  Would have supported it even if they didn't come back and win.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 12:11 »

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I like the call, liked it as soon as it happened.  Would have supported it even if they didn't come back and win.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote
sorry guys, I still disagree.  I think regardless you give the Pack a long field to score.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  Tomlin has some serious brass ones to have pulled that stunt, and I'm glad he did.  Desperate times call for desperate measures, and he did what he believed that he had to do to win the game in spite of the heat he was going to take for it.
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 21, 2009 at 22:42 »

I think it was an insane in-game decision.  Why put the Pack basically in FG range without barely needing to move the ball?

That being said, I absolutely love the move if for no other reason than the message he is sending the D.  These guys think they can get by on last year's reputation without actually having to make plays.  They are the weak link on this team right now and Tomlin called them out.  The D had to have been humbled by that call and I would hope that they play the rest of this season out to prove Tomlin made the wrong call not believing in them. 

And of course, Ike had to pick that time to actually catch a football that hits him in the chest.
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Spen
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 00:46 »

I think the onside kick was a stupid call and I also think the 2 pt conversion attempt was stupid.
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steelerfaninCO
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 03:09 »

Good call, and the right one. He was trying to win the game, and I can respect that.

Effing Ike. You can see Carey Davis is right next to Ike, and totally stops and looks around as if the play is over knowing that Ike fucked up.
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bamf16
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 09:36 »

I think the onside kick was a stupid call and I also think the 2 pt conversion attempt was stupid.


Ok, like Preach said, we can agree to disagree.

But for the 2-point conversion, you can think it was stupid.  You'd be wrong, but you can think it. 
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 10:47 »

I think the onside kick was a stupid call and I also think the 2 pt conversion attempt was stupid.


Ok, like Preach said, we can agree to disagree.

But for the 2-point conversion, you can think it was stupid.  You'd be wrong, but you can think it. 

No, you're a towel!!
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 10:51 »

I think the onside kick was a stupid call and I also think the 2 pt conversion attempt was stupid.


Ok, like Preach said, we can agree to disagree.

But for the 2-point conversion, you can think it was stupid.  You'd be wrong, but you can think it. 

No, you're a towel!!

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Spen
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 11:08 »

I think the onside kick was a stupid call and I also think the 2 pt conversion attempt was stupid.


Ok, like Preach said, we can agree to disagree.

But for the 2-point conversion, you can think it was stupid.  You'd be wrong, but you can think it.  

Nevermind. I only saw the end of the game from the point the Steelers got the ball for the last drive. I thought I heard a commentator say the Packers were ahead by only 6 because they tried a 2 point conversion and failed.
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bamf16
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 11:48 »

Ahhh.....that makes sense then!

Could you imagine a coach thinking outside the box enough to try that?  Get a TD to go up 6, then go for 2!
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 22, 2009 at 13:58 »

Ahhh.....that makes sense then!

Could you imagine a coach thinking outside the box enough to try that?  Get a TD to go up 6, then go for 2!

LOL, no not really. But I thought that's what I heard them say. So that's why I thought that it was a stupid decision.
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