Maximum Grilled Steelers Forum
Oct 23, 2014 at 16:21 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Calendar Media Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 10 [11] 12   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Week 04 - 10/3 - Baltimore  (Read 5966 times)
otismalibu
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 7054
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,907



« Reply #100 on: Oct 06, 2010 at 19:56 »

Quote
Cause the Steelers are hypocritical.  Just like all of us.

Next thing you'll be saying is that Ced Wilson and James Harrison were treated differently, when they were doing nothing more than teaching their women how to listen.
Logged
P4P
Hillbilly Deluxe
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 3313
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,712



« Reply #101 on: Oct 06, 2010 at 20:26 »

Your way with words made me laugh like hell.  I'm not a woman beater nor do I condone that, but your comment was frigging hilarious.  Yeah...what about James Harrison?

I just don't understand how some are disciplined and others not.  Some traded and some retained.  There has to be a standard.  Somewhere. 
Logged

Honesty is something you can't wear out.
Waylon Jennings
kluisi61
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 2769
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,076



« Reply #102 on: Oct 06, 2010 at 21:53 »

When you trade a SB MVP for a 5th round pick that we then traded for McFadden...yeah, Imma judge his ass.
Holmes for McFadden.  Bad tradeoff.

Thanks for not mentioning the multiple drug dings. 

Next time, Smoketonio gets a year vacation.  That doesn't factor?

Nope.  Could have drafted a damn CB to fill the McFadden shoes.  Ben got 4 games.  So did Holmes.  Wheres the difference?  Hell if we are all about getting rid of the "trash", then why did we stop at one?  Cause the Steelers are hypocritical.  Just like all of us.

The damned difference is that Santonio's done this TWICE and next time he's out for a YEAR.

That's a major potential liability.


Isn't this Ben's second time too?  Come on ya bastard!  You're a head on a pillow.  Surely that brain of yours remembers that little factoid.

Let the hypocrisy fly!

And if he does it again (convicted or not), I'm going to guess that he's gone for a year too. But then again, I'm sure BFL, Dixon, and Batch can handle it. Wink
Logged

OK Chris. Now that we have practiced kissing and cuddling, we'll practice eating out...at a fancy restaurant.

 - Lois Griffin

-----------------

Goal Line Blitz - Football player and team simulator...Very Fun.

Fallen Sword - MMORPG that is very fun. No ads and it's free.

give'emthaboot
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 1469
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,837



« Reply #103 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 07:24 »

When you trade a SB MVP for a 5th round pick that we then traded for McFadden...yeah, Imma judge his ass.
Holmes for McFadden.  Bad tradeoff.

Thanks for not mentioning the multiple drug dings. 

Next time, Smoketonio gets a year vacation.  That doesn't factor?

Nope.  Could have drafted a damn CB to fill the McFadden shoes.  Ben got 4 games.  So did Holmes.  Wheres the difference?  Hell if we are all about getting rid of the "trash", then why did we stop at one?  Cause the Steelers are hypocritical.  Just like all of us.

The damned difference is that Santonio's done this TWICE and next time he's out for a YEAR.

That's a major potential liability.


Isn't this Ben's second time too?  Come on ya bastard!  You're a head on a pillow.  Surely that brain of yours remembers that little factoid.

Let the hypocrisy fly!

The fact that this is the last year of Holmes' deal and there was clearly no intention of resigning him has to play a part too.

I agree with you on the fact that the trade was dumb and desperate considering what they got in exchange for him, but you simply can't compare Holmes' situation with Ben's, hypocritical or not.
Logged

'Oh, my, James Harrison is not going to the White House, he must be a devil worshiper!'
Finnegans Wake
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 12194
Online Online

Posts: 22,323



« Reply #104 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 08:49 »

You can't frame the argument as a discussion of essentially swapping Holmes for McFadden, and then decide midstream to switch it to a comparison to Ben's case and a claim of hypocrisy.  I mean, you can, but it's really two separate arguments.

Fact is, McFadden is playing better than Gay did at CB last year as a starter, and he's playing better back in LeBeau's system than he did in Arizona.  As bad as the CBs looked at times against Baltimore, fact is we've given up 2 passing TDs in 4 games, only one of which was meaningful.  Over a 16 game season, I'd take that any damned day of the week.

On McFadden v. Holmes: which is more likely to be suspended for a year?  Holmes, no doubt whatsoever.  McFadden has ZERO pot or PED dings.  End of comparison there.

Fungibility:  If you want to upgrade or replace a starting WR or CB, how easy is that to do?  Assuming the Steelers FO methodology of free agency, we're looking at either bringing in a guy like McFadden cheap, or going to the draft.  Good CBs who can play in their first year or two generally are R1 or R2 guys.  We've taken some day 2 guys, with mixed results.  Haven't had a high level CB since Ricardo Colclough, who was a fail; he's now playing with Jeff Garcia and other luminaries in the UFL, which appears to be the level to which his talent rises.  Given Ike's age and uncertain depth at CB, we might want to draft a corner early in the next couple of drafts, but McFadden appears at this point to be an acceptable replacement.  That switch, of Holmes for McFadden, then opened a hole at starting WR.  We took Wallace in R3 last year, and IMO Wallace is an adequate replacement for Holmes; he'll need to work with Ben on the underneath routes, but clearly has the best deep speed we have ever seen wearing B&G.  In sum: you could replace Holmes with a R3, but likely would need a R1 or R2 CB to replace McFadden (there are late round CBs starting and playing well, but recent history is against the Steelers being one to do so going forward: McFadden was a R2, IIRC).  So from that view, we did better to reclaim McFadden than to retain Holmes.

On the comparison of Holmes v. Roethlisberger, the "hypocrisy" of keeping the $100 million franchise QB over keeping a WR in his last contract year who is in no way comparable in terms of team impact...?  I don't know that this was ever a moral consideration from the FO, although the press widely inferred as much.  It was more an issue of contingencies and replaceability.  Holmes's replaceability, discussed above, was an adequate address of needs.  You can look at it this way: we needed to upgrade starting CB, and get a long-term solution at WR2 since Holmes was far too unpredictable and likely far too expensive for an extension.  We solved both emergent problems by dealing Holmes and drafting Wallace, or a net cost to us of a R3 rookie draft pick and contract.  Sweet.

For Ben, if he is stupid enough to put himself in a bad situation again (in the path of potential liability), yes, he could face a year suspension.  But again, you have $100M invested; the FO consideration is what is best for the team, not some mythic moral Steeler ideal, however much we fans invest in that; finally, what are the likely outcomes if you deal Ben?

First of all, a team would take a chance on Ben as QB, despite his perceived baggage.  The real issue would be, once risk is assessed (reward is pretty well established as a top-5 QB), at what cost?  Assuming Ben's contract is no small cap consideration, and when talking what you can get for a player, it's always roughly UPSIDE - (CONTRACT COSTS + RISKS) = DRAFT PICKS. 

From there, you'd need to know, from a Steelers perspective, that the draft pick would include a R1, end of discussion.  The best QBs of the past decade were all drafted R1 (or with Brees, what would now be included in R1) save of course the Wunderkid Brady.  Manning was 1.1 (1998), Ben was 1.11 (2004), Rivers was 1.4 (2004), Aaron Rodgers was 1.24 (2005); emergent elite potential includes Matt Ryan, 1.3 (2008) and Sam Bradford, 1.1 (2010).  Romo was undrafted (2003) but neither is he elite in my estimation.  Warner was undrafted, but you're all the way back to the 1994 draft. 

For all that, you're going to see R1 is historically littered with QB flops as well, so you either need divine intervention (Brady, Warner); a first round pick and long odds (late R1s such as Brees and Rodgers); or more likely, a top-10 pick and no small measure of luck as well (the rest). 

Not every year yields an elite QB, so there's timing: just because you NEED a franchise QB, doesn't mean the Kiper hype du jour sitting at the top of the heap will measure up.  Stafford?  Tebow?  Sanchez?  Freeman?  JaMarcus Russell, laughably not.  Vince Young, no.  Alex Smith, no.  Eli, no.  Flacco, no.  Quinn, another laugher.  Cutler, no.  Leinart, God no.  Losman... who?!  Leftwich, anyone?  David Carr???  Grossman???  Boller???  How about Harrington, or Patrick Ramsey?

So you are better off picking top 10, which limits trading partners by a third, and you need to hit a year when the players equal the hype, maybe once every 3 years.  If you don't mind the odds of getting a non-elite R1 QB about 75% of the time, if good enough is good enough, or even outright fugly is a risk worth taking, then fine, trade away your $100M QB because of some perceived hypocrisy.  Be willing, of course, to skip the Super Bowl for the next decade or so, unless you somehow luck into a guy like a Bradford that you can take a few years to develop. 

To me, the whole thing is clearly a case of working with your QB to help him get his personal life together, because (as Steelers history post-Bradshaw has shown), it's no easy thing finding a QB who can finish the puzzle for you.  The number of teams who win with a Trent Dilfer are the clear minority in the modern game. 

You would probably need a team to surrender a top-10 R1 pick for three successive years to have a shot -- just a shot -- at getting talent at or close to Ben's.  Meanwhile, Holmes + R3 draft pick = McFadden + Wallace.  I'm totally fine with that.  You can re-imagine it as: is Wallace a worthy successor to Holmes?  And is McFadden playing CB as well as a R3 pick would have?  I say yes, and yes.
Logged

Out of my mind on Saturday night...
jonzr
Asst. VP, Jonzring
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 11363
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,586


Have a cup o' joe.


WWW
« Reply #105 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 09:42 »

QE fucking D

Wow Finny, your brain is all like, organized and stuff.
Logged

"I like David Bowie, he was always my favorite member of Tin Machine."
- Rodney Anonymous

It's a Steeler Nation
pensodyssey
Halfsharkalligator halfman.
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 8122
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,727



« Reply #106 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 13:44 »

QE fucking D

Wow Finny, your brain is all like, organized and stuff.


And he claims to be a drinker. Pfft.
Logged

A shabby Charlie Brown.
jonzr
Asst. VP, Jonzring
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 11363
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,586


Have a cup o' joe.


WWW
« Reply #107 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 15:15 »

QE fucking D

Wow Finny, your brain is all like, organized and stuff.


And he claims to be a drinker. Pfft.

Well, never before 11 am.
Logged

"I like David Bowie, he was always my favorite member of Tin Machine."
- Rodney Anonymous

It's a Steeler Nation
P4P
Hillbilly Deluxe
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 3313
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,712



« Reply #108 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 16:13 »

Holy fuck Finny.  Lets keep it social here.

All I truly wanted to do was to see who took my posts and ran with them.  Bring a little spice to the board.  I think there is a clear winner.  LMAO.

Hope you popped some Xanax after you typed that.  Sheesh

OH...I found a pic of you waitin for the mail.

Logged

Honesty is something you can't wear out.
Waylon Jennings
Finnegans Wake
Global Moderator
Old School Member
*****

Karma: 12194
Online Online

Posts: 22,323



« Reply #109 on: Oct 07, 2010 at 17:21 »

Quote from: P4P link=topic=18767.msg10624235#msg10624235 date=1286485993

OH...I found a pic of you waitin for the mail.

[img


That's my Billy Ray Finny costume.

Scary part is, it ain't my house.  People came home and never did get their damned mail.
Logged

Out of my mind on Saturday night...
Pages: 1 ... 10 [11] 12   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
| Sitemap
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!