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Author Topic: Bettis and the HOF  (Read 1241 times)
jburghfan
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 11, 2011 at 11:27 »

Ken O'Brien's from Pittsburgh?
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aj_law
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 11, 2011 at 11:35 »

If he arrives at the awards ceremony in the best shape of his career, will anyone know it?
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 11, 2011 at 14:17 »

Ken O'Brien's from Pittsburgh?

I would've gone with Richard Todd, but well played nonetheless.
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Y2Joyce
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 23:38 »

It's Revis Namath and Martin, right?

Been using that a bit this week already.

You'd have to think most HOF voters have watched the game of football and it's not gonna comedown to some internet stat geek baseball style matrix argument. Anyone who had seen both play knows Bettis was a much more important and better player than Martin.

Martin should still be in. Faulk and Deion are locks. Cris Carter should definitely be in. I don't understand whatever argument there has been against him that keeps him out.

Big Dirty Dawson should be in over ALL of these guys, though. You cannot be the best player at youre position for an entire decade and then be ignored for other players, who'd rank far below you on their list at their position, to get enshrined. No matter how glamourless the position. Dawson's the best. Great dude, too. Best center ever. Curtis Martin? maybe 20th best RB ever. Only 4th best Allderdice grad behind Cope, my dad and the great Wiz Khalifa
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 09:32 »

It's Revis Namath and Martin, right?

You are correct sir.


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Manimal
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 11:21 »

I think Bettis doesn't get in this year, but Dawson does. I think they'll send in a linemen per year in the next few years, and he beats out everyone on the list.

People forget, too, that Bettis played with horrible-to-perfunctory quarterbacking his entire career. Teams knew he was going to run; teams knew he was going to run between the tackles. And he wasn't a 3rd-and-long draw-play stat compiler, either. He wasn't on the field in 4-wide, or even many 3-wide sets.

He ran against stacked defenses on almost every one of his carries. I bet Bettis's percentage of carries vs. 8-in-the-box is larger than any of his contemporaries, and by a wide margin. Casual fans don't think of this, but I hope the writers who vote will.
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msdmnr2002
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 16:51 »

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Cris Carter should definitely be in. I don't understand whatever argument there has been against him that keeps him out.


I think the argument is the same one that kept Art Monk out for so long.  Carter is viewed more as a stat compiler than a dominant reciever.  I think it was faulty logic in Monk's case, but at least they are consistent.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 18:16 »

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Cris Carter should definitely be in. I don't understand whatever argument there has been against him that keeps him out.


I think the argument is the same one that kept Art Monk out for so long.  Carter is viewed more as a stat compiler than a dominant reciever.  I think it was faulty logic in Monk's case, but at least they are consistent.

That being so, would Hines be considered "dominant" or simply "durable?"  The finer things of intangibles aside, and pass blocking (won't be a big factor to voters, IMO), Carter got 13,899 (8th) in 16 seasons to Ward's 11,702 (24th) in 13.  Carter, 1,101 (3rd) recepts, Ward, 954 (T-8).  Looking at the disparity for both guys in catches versus yardage tells you a lot about what kind of receiver they are.  BTW, Hines is tied with one Randy Moss, who also came into the league in 1998, FWIW.  One disparity between Carter and Ward is RZ utilization, where Carter has 130 (4th) TDs and Ward has 83 (19th).  Some of that is surely scheme, and some talent of the guy chucking it, given that Ben Roethlisberger was only active for about half of Ward's tenure, and the transition to a passing team was not immediate. 

Straight up, I'd take Ward over Carter.  But I'd be hard pressed to say that Carter wasn't close.

Ward's said he'd retire with a third ring: if we would win it this year, would he?  Three rings is nice; three rings AND 1,000 snags is nicer, to voters.
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msdmnr2002
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 18:51 »


Stats definitely on Carter's side; two rings (hopefully more) and a SB MVP give Ward an edge.

Plus, he's got better #s than two Steeler HOF WRs; granted, must account for era.

I think Carter will get in at some point.  Ward likewise will get in but will have to wait several years after becoming eligible.
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 22:11 »

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That being so, would Hines be considered "dominant" or simply "durable?"  The finer things of intangibles aside, and pass blocking (won't be a big factor to voters, IMO), Carter got 13,899 (8th) in 16 seasons to Ward's 11,702 (24th) in 13.  Carter, 1,101 (3rd) recepts, Ward, 954 (T-8).  Looking at the disparity for both guys in catches versus yardage tells you a lot about what kind of receiver they are.  BTW, Hines is tied with one Randy Moss, who also came into the league in 1998, FWIW.  One disparity between Carter and Ward is RZ utilization, where Carter has 130 (4th) TDs and Ward has 83 (19th).  Some of that is surely scheme, and some talent of the guy chucking it, given that Ben Roethlisberger was only active for about half of Ward's tenure, and the transition to a passing team was not immediate.

But you're not factoring in their contemporaries at the position, which has as much to do with selection as anything else.  Carter was in the shadow of guys like Rice and Irvin.  Ward's been in the shadow of Ochocinco, Owens, and Moss, none of whom have done anything in particular to solidify their position as hall of famers past the midway point of their careers (and yes I know and agree that Moss deserves to be in).  Ward will be viewed I hope not as a hanger-on, but as one whose standard of excellence never dipped throughout his career.  Kind of like a Cal Ripken, but actually, you know, good.
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