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Author Topic: Tomlin presser after the game  (Read 1800 times)
msdmnr2002
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 11, 2012 at 20:32 »

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Your camp is way too emotional about supporting Tomlin. Go back to that bulleted list - is there anything you can legitimately dispute? Forget I mentioned Bill Stewart. Are any of those things untrue?


Their teams play with no intensity - FALSE - Ask Harrison's wallet about this one
Their teams were/are never prepared - FALSE - You don't beat NE at any time without being prepared.  D is on point 95% of the time, Sunday excepted
Neither could/can manage the clock - Agreed problem area
Neither had/have an ounce of situational awareness - FALSE - I'm sure at some point in the last 40 years he's had some situational awareness
Both had/have TERRIBLE OCs - Agreed
Both hired their terrible OCs - OK you got us- most coaches actually pick their OC.
Both refused/refuse to fire their terrible OCs (Stewart did so only when forced to) - Agree - loyal to a fault, comes with territory of young coach
Their teams have no identity - FALSE - Best defense in league over last 5 years (or maybe 2nd - don't have exact #s for that time period).  Known for aggressive play.
Their teams don't score - FALSE - Not exactly the Saints/Packers/Pats, but over past 5 years rank 9, 20, 12,12, 21 in league in scoring.  So average middle of pack, but when you rank 2,1,12,1,1 in scoring D it's enough.
Both would never admit mistakes, and when the mistake was obvious, both would say they would do it the same way if the same situation presented itself again - TRUE, again So he makes his decision and isn't swayed by one bad result.  He's confident (That's a GOOD thing, FYI) - again, still learning and doesn't have luxury of hindsight
Both were/are "players coaches" (which, IMO, produces uninspired football) - True - Jury out on whether that's good or bad.  Cowher was a player's coach, FYI.


So, you got about 50%.  Most grading scales that's an F.  Bottom line, 4 playoff apprearances, 2 SBs, one championship in 5 years.  If he were let go he'd be unemployed for less time than it took Harrison to run back that pick - 6 in the SB.

So who do you want to replace him?

« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2012 at 20:37 by msdmnr2002 » Logged
Joetorious
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 09:42 »

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Your camp is way too emotional about supporting Tomlin. Go back to that bulleted list - is there anything you can legitimately dispute? Forget I mentioned Bill Stewart. Are any of those things untrue?


Their teams play with no intensity - FALSE - Ask Harrison's wallet about this one Not sure pointing to a SINGLE outlier proves this assertion wrong. On the whole, the team plays flat regularly.
Their teams were/are never prepared - FALSE - You don't beat NE at any time without being prepared.  D is on point 95% of the time, Sunday excepted I agree the team played flawlessly (except for the chronic end of half/game clock management problems) this game (in fact, I alluded to it earlier in this very thread). But again, this game was an exception - not the rule.
Neither could/can manage the clock - Agreed problem area
Neither had/have an ounce of situational awareness - FALSE - I'm sure at some point in the last 40 years he's had some situational awareness That's reassuring. So you're OK with having a coach that "at some point in 40 years" has had situational awareness? I'd prefer one that displays it weekly during a crucial 20-plus-week stretch on an annual basis.
Both had/have TERRIBLE OCs - Agreed
Both hired their terrible OCs - OK you got us- most coaches actually pick their OC. Correct. And most can evaluate talent before the choice, and if their choice sucks, they have the stones and willingness to cut bait. None of that is true for Tomlin.
Both refused/refuse to fire their terrible OCs (Stewart did so only when forced to) - Agree - loyal to a fault, comes with territory of young coach
Their teams have no identity - FALSE - Best defense in league over last 5 years (or maybe 2nd - don't have exact #s for that time period).  Known for aggressive play. Kudos to Tomlin for keeping Lebeau, who has helped ensure continuation of a decades-old trend. No props to Tomlin for allowing his OC to achieve about 50 percent of his personnel's potential. If we're supposed to be a passing team, we don't do it very well (at least beyond the 20s). We're sure as hell not a running team, but that's OK - if we excel at passing, which we don't. Are we balanced? Hell no. WTF are we except a hold-your-breath-and-see-what-Arians-and-Ben-come-up-with team?
Their teams don't score - FALSE - Not exactly the Saints/Packers/Pats, but over past 5 years rank 9, 20, 12,12, 21 in league in scoring.  So average middle of pack, but when you rank 2,1,12,1,1 in scoring D it's enough. Very pedestrian, as you point out. If we had Billy Volek or Kordell Stewart and weak WRs, I could understand that type of meager point production. But we have a true franchise QB, great WRs, a terrific TE, solid RBs (especially combined). Given those weapons, there's no way producing such paltry numbers should be acceptable, regardless of what our D does. So the D keeps the other teams' scores low and we score a lot - what's wrong with consistently blowing out the opponent?
Both would never admit mistakes, and when the mistake was obvious, both would say they would do it the same way if the same situation presented itself again - TRUE, again So he makes his decision and isn't swayed by one bad result.  He's confident (That's a GOOD thing, FYI) - again, still learning and doesn't have luxury of hindsight I understand that confidence is a good thing. But I'm not pointing to one-offs. He makes many fundamental mistakes repeatedly. If he doesn't want to fall on a sword publicly, if his ego's too fragile or if he feels insecure about his job, fine. But at least he could show us that he understands that he's failed in the past by not replicating the mistakes time and time again.
Both were/are "players coaches" (which, IMO, produces uninspired football) - True - Jury out on whether that's good or bad.  Cowher was a player's coach, FYI. Yes, Cowher was a player's coach. But unlike Tomlin, he would light fires under players' asses. He would break his foot off in a ref's ass. And do you think for one second that if his Steelers were getting jobbed and fined by the League that he would stand idly by? Agree that both are "players' coaches." But one exhibited tough love and held his players (and other coaches) accountable, the other simply does not.


So, you got about 50%.  Most grading scales that's an F.  If the teacher's wearing black and gold glasses. Bottom line, 4 playoff apprearances, 2 SBs, one championship in 5 years.  If he were let go he'd be unemployed for less time than it took Harrison to run back that pick - 6 in the SB. Good for him; I surely wouldn't want him to stand in the unemployment line for too long. If some other team wants to hoodwinked by smooth-talking and they want to base such an important hire on interviewing skills alone, good for them too.

So who do you want to replace him? Honestly, I'm not sure. But then again, I don't pay enough attention to - nor am I paid to know - other teams' staffs. That said, since Cowher's resignation, I think many other teams have made better hires than the Steelers did with Tomlin, meaning their hires were all better candidates than Tomlin.

Coaches that I would rather have had than Tomlin (who were on the market at the time of his hire or since):

Jim or John Harbaugh (I don't think John has the on-field talent Tomlin has had, but gets much more out of it, and this year, head-to-head, has straight-up owned Tomlin...made him his bitch, actually)
McCarthy
Sean Peyton (and I'd almost take Peyton Manning)
Whiz (like Tomlin, I think he would have kept Lebeau around. Unlike Tomlin, he'd be dialed into the offense and ensuring such lethal weapons were put to use.)
Jim Schwartz
Grimm (my understanding is that there were off-field concerns with him, but his football acumen and ability to get a lot out of players seems to be head-and-shoulders above Tomlin)

Current HCs that I think are better than Tomlin:

All of above-named HCs
BB
Kubiak
Fox




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Joetorious
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 09:57 »

Dude - whether you agree with it or not, how can you fail to see my point? My point is that Tomlin fucking blows.

You should have just said so then instead of trying to pick your nose by reaching through your legs first. Yes, had I not provided reasons for making such an assertion, I'm sure that would have gone over very well.

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I'm suggesting that - consciously or not - he inherited the same approach to coaching as one of the worst HCs I've ever seen roam a sideline.

You mean Brad Childress? No, Bill Stewart. Not sure what point you're trying to make with the Brad Childress comment. I would think you're trying to pick your nose by going through your legs first.

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Sharing so many shitty qualities with one of his former bosses may be the craziest coincidence of all time, but I doubt it.

Did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy, and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln?  Opportune time for your apples and oranges pic.

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Your camp is way too emotional about supporting Tomlin.

Er, yeah. Not saying you're teary-eyed, but simply that your all's support is emotionally charged rather than based on anything of substance. To each his own, I guess.


Have you worked with people before? If so, early in your career, did you pick up any habits from co-workers? Perhaps a boss? Perhaps you're wise and only picked up and continued to apply only the good traits/habits. Tomlin seems to have done the opposite.
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 10:43 »

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Have you worked with people before? If so, early in your career, did you pick up any habits from co-workers? Perhaps a boss? Perhaps you're wise and only picked up and continued to apply only the good traits/habits. Tomlin seems to have done the opposite.


This is your fuzzy logic in a nutshell.  Habits are things like getting to work early, staying late, providing discipline when necessary and letting people do their own thing when it works.  All of which apply to PS HC MT.

Hiring an offensive coordinator is not a "habit". 

Jim Schwartz and the Harbaughs are rah rah yahoos who have no business in black and gold.  John Fox has done dick in all his years in the NFL; he's a nice name to throw out because he caught lightning in a bottle for one game.  Kubiak would be great for the Steelers... as an OC. Belichick, Payton and McCarthy compare favorably in some ways but I'm thinking they're employed elsewhere now.  Msdmnr's question wasn't "Who in theory is better?", it was "Who do you want to replace him?". 

As for Grimm and Whiz, they went the same interview process as MT and lost.  But I guess in your backasswards world that's because Dan Rooney picked up bad habits from his boss.
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 11:16 »

Don't worry Joetorius, penso is still grumpy after getting the brown patch implants on his elbows.  Tenure don't give a shit.
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 12:34 »

Cool. We agree that Tomlin sucks (since you're only argument is he's nothing like Stewart). I can live with that.

Couple of other things though:

- Tomlin might let people do their own thing when it works, but more often he lets them do their own thing when it doesn't work. 

- If you read carefully, I didn't say the coaches I mentioned should be hired by the Steelers. I said any of those in the first group I mentioned should have been hired over Tomlin. And I said all of the ones I mentioned are better than Tomlin, period - not in theory.

- Fox overachieved year after year in Charlotte with no fan support and even less on-field talent. In Denver, he won a division with a QB who, by most expert accounts, sucks, and then put him in a position to THROW for 3:16 yards against the League's #1 D.

- I don't mind rah rah coaches. At least their pulses are detectable, and their teams are usually fun to watch (save for Rex Ryan and the Jets).

- Re: Grimm and Whiz, I have no clue why the Rooneys chose an unaccomplished Tomlin over them, except for what I heard from most media reports: he gave a hell of an interview. Great for him; sucks for us.

I'll spare everyone else here anymore back and forth on this. In the end, Tomlin's shortcomings are glaring to anyone who looks at his work objectively. If he could make some changes (in his style and on his staff), I'd wholeheartedly support him. However, until that happens, I can't. Just because he happens to be the Steelers coach doesn't mean he's a good one.
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 13:11 »

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Cool. We agree that Tomlin sucks (since you're only argument is he's nothing like Stewart). I can live with that.

Don't put words in my mouth, chief.  My argument is that Tomlin has a championship and four playoff appearances on five years.  What we have yet to hear from you is an accounting of that beyond the "he's playing with Cowher's players" claptrap.

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- If you read carefully, I didn't say the coaches I mentioned should be hired by the Steelers. I said any of those in the first group I mentioned should have been hired over Tomlin. And I said all of the ones I mentioned are better than Tomlin, period - not in theory.

And if you had read carefully, you would have answered the question as posed: who would be a better replacement now?

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- Fox overachieved year after year in Charlotte with no fan support and even less on-field talent. In Denver, he won a division with a QB who, by most expert accounts, sucks, and then put him in a position to THROW for 3:16 yards against the League's #1 D.

"Overachieved" implies some kind of achievement.  What exactly did Fox achieve? Also he had plenty of time to take care of the lack of on-field talent; he was there, what, nine years? 

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- I don't mind rah rah coaches. At least their pulses are detectable, and their teams are usually fun to watch (save for Rex Ryan and the Jets).

That's cool.  I prefer to watch my team actually, you know, win.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 17:08 »

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So, you got about 50%.  Most grading scales that's an F.  If the teacher's wearing black and gold glasses

You don't have to like the grade, but it's the one you earned.  YOu made the rules: 
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Are any of those things untrue?


Most of them are never/none statements.  Only need one to make it false.

And despite multiple attempts, still couldn't answer the question - you run the show, of available people right now, who do you want?  And John Fox?  Seriously?  Career record 81-79?  YOu're bringing that to the party?

Bottom line, when's the last time the Steelers messed up a head coaching hire?  That would be, ummm, well, not in my lifetime.  And Tomlin has already proven enough to not be the first.

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« Reply #18 on: Jan 12, 2012 at 18:28 »

If you don't like Tomlin, you're probably just a racist icon_rr

He's doing a good job.
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Joetorious
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 14, 2012 at 07:01 »

If anyone is 'probably just a racist' on this board, it is the guy with the pic of himself butt fucking a turkey.

My dislike of Tomlin is all about his mangement style and failure to come close to achieving optimal results.

Penso - I said I don't know who i'd want to replace Tomlin. I wouldn't want a re-tread and don't know enough about most other teams' coordinators and positions coaches (and wouldn't want someone from the college ranks).  Also, pretty sure I listed a slew of reasons (see initial comparison list) beyond the 'cowher's team (valid) argument' for why Tomlin is no good.

Miss - that 'the Steelers have never messed up a coaching hire' thinking is the pride that is going to keep Tomlin here for longer than he should be. Re: Fox, I think he achieves the best possible results with talent (or lack therof) that he has. And that's what I'm looking for in anyone in any leadership position. You cannot honestly say that Tomlin gets the most out of his players and coaches.
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2012 at 07:18 by Joetorious » Logged

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