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Author Topic: 2014 NFL HOF Class  (Read 2215 times)
kluisi61
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« on: Feb 02, 2014 at 15:58 »

No brainers:
  • Walter Jones
  • Derrick Brooks
  • Michael Strahan
  • Ray Guy (senior inductee)

Surprises:
  • Andre Reed
  • Aeneas Williams

Unknown:
  • Claude Humphrey (senior inductee)

Snubs:
  • Tim Brown
  • Marvin Harrison
  • Jerome Bettis
  • Will Shields
  • Kevin Green
  • Charles Haley

Other Finalists:
  • Morten Anderson
  • Eddie DeBartolo, Jr.
  • Tony Dungy
  • John Lynch


Discussion:
I think Ray Guy should have been in long ago, so no issue with that. The other three no brainers above are just that and do not require any discussion really.

As for the other inductees, I don't know anything about Humphrey. He was before my time. Maybe ask Finny or Keystone *ducks*.

I think Brown, Harrison, and Bettis were the biggest snubs. Both Harrison and Brown were more deserving WRs than Reed (I would put Brown in first actually). Also, I think Bettis is more deserving of a spot than Reed or Williams. The other snubs probably deserve to be in, but I wouldn't bump anyone who did get in for them.

As for the others, Anderson and DeBartolo deserve it, but its hard for contributors and specialists to get in (just ask Ray Guy). Lynch will also probably be in at some point, but again no problem with him waiting. Finally, Dungy can wait for a long time as far as I'm concerned. First, he is just a coach with no player HOF credentials. Second, it seems to me that when compared to other coaches in the HOF, his only noteworthy coaching credentials are an excellent regular season winning percentage and winning a super bowl while black.

139-69 (.668) winning percentage in the regular season
9-10 (.474) losing percentage in the postseason
1 Super Bowl win (XLI in 2007 - 2006 NFL season)

Compared to these coaches already in (in no particular order), it doesn't add up:
CoachRegular SeasonPost SeasonChampionshipsSuper BowlsSB LossesOther
Guy Chamberlin.784no postseason in 1920s400N/A
John Madden.763.563010Contributor
Vince Lombardi.738.900340SB Trophy Name
George Halas .682.667 600
Don Shula.678.528024Only Undefeated Season Ever
Paul Brown.672.529 700
Earl (Curly) Lambeau .631.600 600
Chuck Noll.566.667 040
Weeb Ewbank.502.800 210
Joe Gibbs.621.708 031
Tom Landry.607.55602 3
Marv Levy.561.579 0044 Super Bowl Appearances in a row
Earle (Greasy) Neale.594.750 200
Bill Parcells.570.579 02 1
Hank Stram.575.625 111
Bill Walsh.609.714 030

In my opinion, coaching Hall of Fame credentials are made in the post season and championships, not the regular season and skin color.

By the way, the following coaches are in the HOF, but do not really support my argument (though some could be argued to be comparable). They are included for completeness.


CoachRegular SeasonPost SeasonChampionshipsSuper BowlsSB LossesOther
George Allen.712.222 001
Steve Owen.602.200 200
Sid Gillman.552.167 200
Jimmy Conzelman.580.500 200
Bud Grant.622.455 004
Ray Flaherty.684.333 200

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« Last Edit: Feb 02, 2014 at 16:35 by kluisi61 » Logged

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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 08:59 »

So much fail with this, and you've detailed it nicely.  The Bettis sham deserves its own thread, but stats speak for themselves; who were his QBs?; ask anyone in the AFCN who played against him; watch the old footage when Bus was new.  These idiots have short memories, and must only think of late-era Bus.  Course, ask Urlacher 'bout that, too.

Aeneas?  20th on the career INT board.  I mean, a very good player and all, but you can't say Bettis or Brown don't deserve a spot and Williams does.  He had a career as long as LeBeau, longer season, played in a passing era, still had 7 fewer picks than Lonesome Dick.  He did tie for the league lead in picks (9) one year (1994).  Start making the case for Richard Sherman.

Andre Reed is borderline, IMO, but Brown and Harrison are 6th and 7th all-time with 14,934 and 14,580, while Reed is 13th at 13,198.  Different systems, and people forget how much the Bills relied on a balanced attack with the ground game.  IMO Reed is more deserving than Williams, heartwarming tale of a Kutztown U. guy making it big, always thought he was clutch.  But hard to make his case over the other two.

By the numbers, Humphrey looks deserving, although I can't remember him frankly.

Dungy is an interesting case.  You could say Grudes essentially took a Dungy team and got a freebie Lombardi.  Dungy rebuilt two foundering franchises, one based on D (TB), one on O (Indy).  Are the postseason shortcomings of the Colts due to their lopsided composition, or Manning out-thinking himself?  He had a rather balanced Broncos team and looked like the wide-eyed 2nd year guy, instead of the far more composed Russell Wilson.  Seriously, I think it's difficult to separate Peyton's late season skittishness from Dungy's discussion.  I would have probably given more blame to the Colts D before the implosion of the Broncos last night; in fairness, that Seahawks D is awesome though.

John Lynch?  26 career picks?  A smart player, a good player, tough STs guy, not a HOFer, no way, no how.

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kluisi61
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 10:15 »

John Lynch?  26 career picks?  A smart player, a good player, tough STs guy, not a HOFer, no way, no how.

I'm not really making a case for or against Lynch because I can see either side really, but his game was never really based on interceptions. It was based on decapitating guys crossing the middle (when that was still legal and encouraged) and being a big hitter. He was in the pro-bowl 9 times for what that's worth.
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 13:08 »

John Lynch?  26 career picks?  A smart player, a good player, tough STs guy, not a HOFer, no way, no how.

I'm not really making a case for or against Lynch because I can see either side really, but his game was never really based on interceptions. It was based on decapitating guys crossing the middle (when that was still legal and encouraged) and being a big hitter. He was in the pro-bowl 9 times for what that's worth.

True.  Good point.
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Merman1983
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 14:39 »

I don't know what is going to piss me off more, Bettis not getting in or the excuses they will come up with not to put in Hines, Ben and Troy.

The guy had 2 years with a real Franchise QB and one was Ben's rookie year.  The 3.9 per carry seems to be a sticking point, but that was due to more of a role change than anything.  Riggins had the same, Curtis Martin .1 higher, Emmitt Smith with the greatest team of the 90s, 2 other hall of famers on the same offense 4.1.

Longevity and being useful beyond your prime is apparently punished. 
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msdmnr2002
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 18:13 »

Quote
I don't know what is going to piss me off more, Bettis not getting in or the excuses they will come up with not to put in Hines, Ben and Troy.

Bettis snub has gone on too long.  He and Martin were neck and neck IMO.  He will get in, just a matter of time.

Of the other 3, I think Troy will have easiest time, Hines will be hardest because his stats won't add up to contemporaries (not his fault).  No one will give a damn about his blocking.  SB MVP will help; Dancing with the Stars champion, not so much.

Ben hopefully will get some good statistical seasons in the next 5 years to boost his candidacy; will be interesting to see.  I think he will eventually get in, but will take a while.  Are there any two time SB winning QBs not in the HOF?One more ring and he's a lock.  Two more and he's first ballot.

Was glad to see Ray GUy get in.  Middle finger to the a-holes who refused to put him in all this time.  When it's 30 years after the fact and you're still considered the best ever to play your position, it doesn't matter what that position is, you are a HOFer.
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pensodyssey
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 18:56 »


Bettis snub has gone on too long.  He and Martin were neck and neck IMO.  He will get in, just a matter of time.

Here's the career lines:

Martin:               Bettis:
168 games           192 games
3518 att             3479
14101 yds          13662
90td                    91
4.0ypc               3.9
83.9avg/gm        71.2
20.9att/gm         18.1     
484rec               200
3329yds rec       1449
6.9yds/rec         7.2
10rec td            3
29 fumbles        41

As runners there's little to separate them, especially given Bettis' extremely reduced role in the final years.  I suppose Martin's edge in passing might give him the edge, but not by two, three or four years HOF eligibility, IMO.
 
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Merman1983
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 03, 2014 at 19:33 »

Quote
I don't know what is going to piss me off more, Bettis not getting in or the excuses they will come up with not to put in Hines, Ben and Troy.

Bettis snub has gone on too long.  He and Martin were neck and neck IMO.  He will get in, just a matter of time.

Of the other 3, I think Troy will have easiest time, Hines will be hardest because his stats won't add up to contemporaries (not his fault).  No one will give a damn about his blocking.  SB MVP will help; Dancing with the Stars champion, not so much.

Ben hopefully will get some good statistical seasons in the next 5 years to boost his candidacy; will be interesting to see.  I think he will eventually get in, but will take a while.  Are there any two time SB winning QBs not in the HOF?One more ring and he's a lock.  Two more and he's first ballot.

Was glad to see Ray GUy get in.  Middle finger to the a-holes who refused to put him in all this time.  When it's 30 years after the fact and you're still considered the best ever to play your position, it doesn't matter what that position is, you are a HOFer.

Plunkett is the only one I think?

Ben's numbers, outside of total yardage and TDs compare pretty well.  Things like YPA, QB Rating, winning %, etc.  As you said though, at least 5 more years of 4000+ yards 25 TDs will help.


I do think Ben, Hines, and Troy are all hall of famers though. 
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kluisi61
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 04, 2014 at 10:00 »

I do think Ben, Hines, and Troy are all hall of famers though. 

Wow...I have a feeling that I'm about to get pretty un-popular right about now, but I'm not sure that any of the three will get in. I think all three are worthy talent wise (I would rank them Troy, Ben, then Ward BTW), but I think all three of them have reasons for voters to keep them out (at least for a long time).

For Troy, he's been injured quite a bit; however, he was (is?) probably the best SS of his era (when he is healthy), which is what the Hall of Fame is all about.

For Ben, he's got the two SB wins (and one loss), but did not play like a Hall of Famer in any of them. His best game was the 2nd where he was 21 of 30 for 256 yards, one TD, and one INT with a passer rating of 93.2. His 3rd SB was average at best where he was 25 of 40 for 263 yards, 2 each of TDs and INTS, and a passer rating of 77.4. His first SB was beyond abysmal 9/21 for 123 yards 0 TDs and 2 INTs for a passer rating of 22.6. In addition to that, his stats while they are great when compared to QBs already in the Hall, are not nearly as good when compared to current era QBs. How many QBs from this era will get in, cause Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rogers are probably locks to get in. The other Manning has as good of a case (or better with 2 SB MVPs) to also make it.

Finally Hines, he is the best blocking WR ever; however, being that it is not the primary purpose of a WR, it will be ignored by the majority of Hall of Fame voters even though it could be argued that it is what SHOULD get him in. When you just look at his receiving statistics though, it is underwhelming compared to other WRs of his generation. He is 21st all time in receiving yards, which is great; however, here are the WRs of his generation (approximately) who are above him (or will likely be by the time their career is over).

Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin (maybe), Roddy White, Wes Welker, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Marques Colston (again maybe). At that point, it becomes hard to tell if more will pass him (like Vincent Jackson, Jennings, Bowe, and/or DeSean Jackson)

How many WRs of this generation can they put in?
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 - Lois Griffin

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Fallen Sword - MMORPG that is very fun. No ads and it's free.

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« Reply #9 on: Feb 04, 2014 at 14:54 »

Can't believe the Bettis snub.

As to #7, #43 and #86, I guess I kinda agree with K-man, to a point.

I agree Polamalu is kinda borderline.  However, if Aeneas Williams deserves to get in (especially in a year where #36 doesn't), then Polamalu does as well.

If Roethlisberger continues to perform at or near the same level he did this year, he'll get in regardless of whether he gets to another SB or not.  When he's done, he'll probably have double the passing yards of Bradshaw.  Think about that for a second.

97% for Ward.  Definitely one of my all time favs, might even be at the top of the list, but the only way he gets in is if they add an auxiliary wing for WRs only.

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