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Author Topic: 2014 Combine notes  (Read 4041 times)
Finnegans Wake
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« on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:44 »

Caught a little of this today.  This writeup pretty closely encapsulates what I was thinking:

OL Workouts

I'd been talking myself out of OL in R1, but I came away extremely impressed with not only how fast guys like Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson looked, but also how fluid they were and how well they moved their feet.  Both are almost certain top-10 locks, but close behind is Taylor Lewan, who was on my radar last year.  He tested extremely well and would be an excellent choice at 1.15 as a franchise LT, nothing against Kelvin Beachum, but seriously... he'd lock down that blind side.  He's also got speed, agility, functional strength, and some meanness.

I still have Matthews rated higher than Robinson, but like I said, likely moot.  Lewan is a good value ~ 1.15.  Another guy who has gotten some buzz lately, Mayock loves him, is ND's Zack Martin.  I admit, I was sort of down on him as an IOL-only guy, but his film says he can definitely be a smaller LT guy.  As Mayock says, he could probably play any of the 5 OL spots.  That kind of versatility is going to push him into my top 15.  He performed well at the combine, and he's got a toughness that I think will serve him well.

Cyrus Kouandjio was, I think, exposed this season, and he had a rough outing.  People rave about his athleticism and upside, but he started as a R2 guy for me and frankly, I think he's now a R3 guy.  RT only. 

Morgan Moses is also a RT, not R1 talent, a bit clumsy.  See Cyrus's notes.

Tiny Richardson may actually grade out above those two, but I don't see LT at all.  A late R2.

I need to look a little closer at Jack Mewhort, who isn't smooth but is smoother than Cyrus, Moses, and Tiny.  Can he play LT?  He's got a little nasty that I like.

Joel Bitonio is another guy I think could be a sleeper.  Need to investigate.  No grade right now.

Billy Turner is a deeper prospect that may be getting overrated.  He's got talent, but he's not elite, and I can't see taking him before R3, probably not until R4.

I'll give the full review in my OT guide, but would love some feedback from y'all...
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aj_law
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 23, 2014 at 01:47 »

Robinson moved like a guy 60 or 70# lighter, easy.  Just insanely fast for a guy 330#s.  I'd rate him higher than Matthews.  Honestly, Robinson, Matthews and Lewan are probably guaranteed top 10 picks in any other year.  Speaks to the depth of this draft.

Would take Robinson at 1.15 and never look back.  Lewan definitely gets consideration. 

Again, for me, the only offensive positions that get a look in R1 are OT and WR if a stud falls.

It's just...that defense...so many needs...so many holes (*giggity*)...CB/LB/NT/S...

Hope for a MONSTER day for all the QBs tomorrow.  If guys like Bortles and Bridgewater have solid performances, they (along with Manziel) go before 1.15 and push some quality prospects down to Pittsburgh.

Speaking of QBs, keep an eye on Connor Shaw.  This year's Russell Wilson.  Have no idea where he's projected to go, but if he's somehow still there on Day Three, WTF not?
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TwistedLemon
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 23, 2014 at 10:09 »

WR Evans had an unofficial time of 4.47    Official not yet posted
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 08:51 »

Saw a little of the WR group, but will look at the whole thing.  No surprises, IMO.

Steelers visits:

WR Kelvin Benjamin (FSU) and WR Donte Moncrief (Ole Miss):  A lot of people love Benjamin, but I'm not as high on him unless we trade back.  Moncrief has a lot of possibility for R3:  think Wallace, less speed, better hands and routes.

RB Ka'Deem Carey (Ariz):  productive collegiately, slow at the combine, seems an odd candidate given the pick of Bell last year - not at all a COP from Bell, I would be looking at speedy late rounders.

FB/TE Trey Millark (Okla.):  Will Johnson, deux?  Another odd meeting, IMO.  Unless the tape shows he's a monster FB and a clear upgrade.  Oh, and will we be using a FB more?

TE Eric Ebron (NC):  a no-brainer.  Would be a huge upgrade to the offense as a WR/TE hybrid, showed very well at the combine by all accounts.  Apparently bonded well with Tomlin, a good sign... if he lasts to 1.15.

WR Allen Robinson (PSU):  want to see his combine tape, but a worthwhile interview.  Very productive collegiately without a lot of other talent in the PSU receiving corps; maybe not a complete receiver, but right now a R2 value worth looking at.  Good due diligence.

DE Kareem Martin (NC):  another Tarheel, I haven't looked at Martin a whole lot yet.  Slotted as a R3 value, has the frame and collegiate productivity, could be an interesting R3/4 value.

CB Justin Gilbert (OSU): another no-brainer, Gilbert IMO is a solid value at 1.15, if not as physical as Denard.  Definitely worth kicking the tires.

NT Louis Nix (ND):  another no-brainer, Nix is definitely in the mix at 1.15.  We can argue about the value of drafting a 2-down NT, but I wonder if the FO can see Nix staying on the field for 3rd downs in a 2-DL front.  really interested in digging through the DL workouts this year.

No Mike Evans though.  They'll talk to a FB but not Evans?  Hiding interest, or just not interested?  Odd.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 09:22 »

FYI on NTs:

*Nix did not lift.  I expect 30+ reps when he does, but I'm disappointed and curious why this was so. Injury?
*La Tech's Justin Ellis was a mid-round NT that I am removing from my board after a disappointing 25 reps.  4-3 DT only.
*Ryan Carrethers is a mid-late prospect who I was also watching, and he hit 32.  Welcome to the big board, Ryan.  And we always scout Arkansas St.
*Guys who hit the magic numbers, but who are not 3-4 NT due to frame:  Aaron Donald (35!), Kaleb Ramsey (36!), Tenny Palepoi (31), Kerry Wynn (31).
*Guys with frames who could play NT or DE in the 30-front (theoretically):  Ra'Shede Hageman (32), Stephon Tuitt (31).  Similar eval on these guys, and if they can play nose and stay on the field for passing downs, very interesting prospects both.
*Off the radar before, but not now:  Robert Thomas, Arkansas (32):  some injury issues, may be a late round consideration off lifts and frame.
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Merman1983
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 09:52 »

WR Evans had an unofficial time of 4.47    Official not yet posted

Yeah "only" .1 slower than Sammy Watkins, and when you consider the difference in frame, doesn't seem like a big difference at all.

Really warming to drafting Evans at 1.15.  I know I said something stupid about a Mike Williams comparison, but I've changed my mind.  Shit, Plex only ran a 4.59 and he beat people deep regularly in his career.
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 10:05 »

FYI on NTs:


*Guys who hit the magic numbers, but who are not 3-4 NT due to frame:  Aaron Donald (35!),

Aaron Donald also ran a 4.66.  Beast.  Don't think he'd fit in a 3-4 they'd draft him for the 3-4 but he's looking like Geno Atkins v2.0.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 11:03 »

FYI on NTs:


*Guys who hit the magic numbers, but who are not 3-4 NT due to frame:  Aaron Donald (35!),

Aaron Donald also ran a 4.66.  Beast.  Don't think he'd fit in a 3-4 they'd draft him for the 3-4 but he's looking like Geno Atkins v2.0.

Donald's been tearing everything up:  Senior Bowl, combine, and had himself a nice senior campaign with 11 sacks and 28.5 TFL (plus 11 sacks in 2011). 

Now, he's way too small for a 3-4 NT but he played NT and 3-4 DE at Pitt, and could be a fit for that here.  Shorter than I like my DEs, but that's about the only drawback.  Just a monster motor, and could be intensely disruptive if the fit were right.

Compare to Hood:

Hood - 6'3", 300#, 34 (36) reps, 4.83 40 (1.62 10), 33" VJ, 9' BJ, 7.50 3-cone.
Donald - 6'1", 285#, 35 reps, 4.65 & 4.66 40 (1.59 & 1.63), Huh? VJ, 9'8" BJ, Huh? 3-cone.

Hood's bigger, but they are similar in workouts.  So was Hood a predictor of Donald's fit in an NFL 3-4 front?  Or has he been a disappointment off stats.  IMO, much as I like Donald, the numbers seem to say he's a much, much better fit in a 4-3. 
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 11:06 »

Clowney blew up the 40, but it's worth noting that his VJ of 37.5", while also insane, was almost matched by Hageman at 35.5".  They're almost the same height, Hags is about half an inch taller.  Ran 4.9s, but showing some good workout numbers for a big man.
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aj_law
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 11:19 »

Saw a little of the WR group, but will look at the whole thing.  No surprises, IMO.

Steelers visits:

WR Kelvin Benjamin (FSU) and WR Donte Moncrief (Ole Miss):  A lot of people love Benjamin, but I'm not as high on him unless we trade back.  Moncrief has a lot of possibility for R3:  think Wallace, less speed, better hands and routes.

RB Ka'Deem Carey (Ariz):  productive collegiately, slow at the combine, seems an odd candidate given the pick of Bell last year - not at all a COP from Bell, I would be looking at speedy late rounders.

FB/TE Trey Millark (Okla.):  Will Johnson, deux?  Another odd meeting, IMO.  Unless the tape shows he's a monster FB and a clear upgrade.  Oh, and will we be using a FB more?

TE Eric Ebron (NC):  a no-brainer.  Would be a huge upgrade to the offense as a WR/TE hybrid, showed very well at the combine by all accounts.  Apparently bonded well with Tomlin, a good sign... if he lasts to 1.15.

WR Allen Robinson (PSU):  want to see his combine tape, but a worthwhile interview.  Very productive collegiately without a lot of other talent in the PSU receiving corps; maybe not a complete receiver, but right now a R2 value worth looking at.  Good due diligence.

DE Kareem Martin (NC):  another Tarheel, I haven't looked at Martin a whole lot yet.  Slotted as a R3 value, has the frame and collegiate productivity, could be an interesting R3/4 value.

CB Justin Gilbert (OSU): another no-brainer, Gilbert IMO is a solid value at 1.15, if not as physical as Denard.  Definitely worth kicking the tires.

NT Louis Nix (ND):  another no-brainer, Nix is definitely in the mix at 1.15.  We can argue about the value of drafting a 2-down NT, but I wonder if the FO can see Nix staying on the field for 3rd downs in a 2-DL front.  really interested in digging through the DL workouts this year.

No Mike Evans though.  They'll talk to a FB but not Evans?  Hiding interest, or just not interested?  Odd.


Doesn't mean much WRT Evans.  Don't think Pittsburgh met with Jarvis last year either (HA!).  Boy, they really had everyone guessing with that move.

Of the first round prospects, Nix makes sense from a need perspective, just not sure they're getting maximum value at 1.15 with that selection.  He's on the radar, but a bunch of guys would have to be taken for me to be happy with that pick.

As to other R1 prospects on the list, not crazy about any of them.  Would rather Dennard over Gilbert, AINEC.  Ebron?  Eh.  I guess.  Dat defense doe.  Again, who else is still on the board?

Heard that they're also interviewing Clinton Dix (S).

FWIW, something that could change the dynamic of their draft approach, apparently, quite a few teams are expressing interest in Worilds at the Combine.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 12:30 »

Yeah, hard to say what the meetings tell us. 

WRT the DEs, Cam Heyward come out of OSU at 6'5" and 294#, so length does seem to have relevance.  Only workout stat I could find for him was 30" VJ, forget if he was injured or something.  So difficult to compare measurables.

Agree with your assessment of Nix, and relative value of Dennard and Gilbert.  If Dennard is off (Lions?), I'd rather see if we can find CB value in R2/3, and get an offensive playmaker in R1.  Hence Ebron, or Evans, or suchlike.  Come in, bang bang, make big plays in the new NFL.

Also not convinced that the R1 safety value is there:  are Dix or Pryor ~ Polamalu?  Not seeing it, at all.

Would like to do player comparisons in this year's write-ups, so if anyone sees comparisons to the top players in the draft, drop them here.  I'd like to do something where I post the player's ceiling and floor, and for each post how he's a cross between two NFL players, past or present.  E.g.:

Mike Evans.  Ceiling:  Tony Gonzalez x Vincent Jackson.  Floor:  Mike Williams x Malcolm Kelly.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 17:20 »

OK, Justin Gilbert repped 22 x 225#.  More than Dennard (15), though that's hardly my benchmark for DBs, but worth noting: 

*1 more than Jadeveon Clowney (21).
*5 more than Michael Sam (17).
*7 more than DE/OLB Anthony Barr (15).

Plenty of other notables who lifted fewer, among the F7 of this class.  Not always a condemnation of skill set, but maybe an indication of dedication, especially to overall training regimens.  I had thought Gilbert might me a bit reedy and lifts would show that.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 24, 2014 at 17:30 »

Speaking of Evans, Wexell reporting:

*No surprise, #Steelers to meet with CB Justin Gilbert tonight. He thinks he might run a 4.2 Tuesday.

And:

*Fla. State free safety Terrence Brooks, who picked off 2 vs. Pitt and dropped 2 others, has met with the #Steelers.

If Gilbert runs a 4.2 I will shit you each monogrammed fucking platinum cufflinks.  Brooks looks like a R4 guy to me; more than JAG?  Hard to say. 
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 25, 2014 at 06:59 »

BTW, on Gilbert v. others on reps - save the arm length argument.  Clowney has 34 1'2" arms, which we can agree are long.  But Hageman has 34 1/4" arms and did 32 reps.  And Gilbert has 33 1/8" arms, among the very longest in the DB set.

So the combine has reaffirmed that Clowney has some talent, in spots, namely speed and leverage, but has deficiencies, in dedication and probably strength at the POA.  Gilbert probably lives by his game tape but doesn't lose for showing dedication in the weight room - helpful at the LOS for jamming strong, taller receivers (if he plays in such a scheme), or at least functional strength in bringing them down.  Barr, I think some of the same notes apply as to Clowney - inconsistent, disappeared for stretches, fast but not necessarily dominant at the POA, a sloppy von Miller wannabe.  Didn't have Clowney in my top 15 (questionable motor) and Barr's coming off.
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 25, 2014 at 09:51 »

Another meeting:

WR Jalen Saunders (Okla.): another Sooner of (IMO) fringe value, late rounder only.  165# is about how much snot I leave in a tissue, I don't care if he returns kicks and is related to Webster Slaughter, I doubt he can stay healthy in the bigs for long.  So, whatever.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 25, 2014 at 10:22 »

I'm now seeing Gilbert credited with 20 - not sure if the early reporting was wrong, or if they took a couple away for not locking out or something.  I have yet to see the DB combine footage.

Still, the point remains.
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 26, 2014 at 06:50 »

S Terrence Brooks (FSU): I'll let the article show his stuff.  Not a guy I've looked at a lot.
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jonzr
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 26, 2014 at 09:46 »

S Terrence Brooks (FSU): I'll let the article show his stuff.  Not a guy I've looked at a lot.


I like that write-up, sounds like he'd be a good guy to have in the secondary.  It would be nice to see a youth movement back there.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 26, 2014 at 10:15 »

ESPN had a write-up about Brooks too.  Seems like an intriguing guy.  Love the fact that he's a converted corner.

Downside of a future of him and Shamarko is their size limitations. 
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 26, 2014 at 12:17 »

Colt Lyerla: DND, no how, no way.  If not for the coke business, then because of his tin foil hat:  "“The parents of the kids that supposedly died in the sandy hook situation are liars,” Lyerla tweeted and later deleted."

Fuck.  You.
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 27, 2014 at 15:46 »

Yeah, well just like you can't teach speed, you can't fix stupid.  Unfortunately, I've seen [more than] my fair share of it.
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Finnegans Wake
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 27, 2014 at 15:54 »

And then there's that RB who left the combine because God told him to.   Like, spoke to him and whatnot.  Not heard from since.

I say we draft him.
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